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Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

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Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#121

Post by spoopyskelly »

busrf wrote: post #98
MaximumYComb wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it stinks like a convenient excuse to remove someone who was difficult to work with. Only last week she slandered her bosses on Twitter, which is a public forum.

Matthew Garrett, a senior security researcher at Google, is very critical about Google on his Twitter all the time. As he has pointed out, he's still very employed. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1334382463498391557 Neither of us are on her team at Google. (I'm certainly not and I doubt you are.) We have no idea how easy it is to work with her. Certainly if I were working with an AI ethics researcher I would expect…

> Matthew Garrett, a senior security researcher at Google

Not fired because that's a real job and not a diversity hire?

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#122

Post by jl2718 »

fullstackPM wrote: post #58
astrange wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LeCunn calmly and rationally explained that a particular model produced biased results, and that that this was due to the bias in its training data. But this claim is certainly not necessarily correct, and he shouldn't have been so confident about it. Any part of a system can contribute to bias and that includes the model design, not just the data. If they want the system to work then they need to actually demonstr…

Wouldn't that go both ways though? Why was Gebru so confident that the bias is because of something else other than the training dataset? She immediately assumed that there are other items contributing to the bias and devolved the quality of the conversation as well by making those claims in a frustrated/exasperated tone. The most obvious and easiest way to clear this up would be for the original researches to train…

No. The easiest way to clear this up would be for Gebru to make a specific claim that was actually related to the model and include a pull request of her own modifications that she had tested to deliver superior results.

This would be called “research”. That is what she was hired to do at Google. For everybody of every race ethnicity orientation able status and background that would be honored to give their best effort at the opportunity to do research at google, acceptance of resignation was the right thing.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#123

Post by me_me_me »

_iyig wrote: post #104
GolDDranks wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true? Is there not any laws protecting the employees or setting time limits for the notice and the actual end of the contract?

In many U.S. states to include California, employment is legally considered “at-will.” This means the employer can terminate the employment agreement at any time and for nearly any reason. You cannot fire someone for membership in a protected class (race, religion, sexual orientation, etc) or participation in protected activities like reporting an employer’s violations of the law, but it’s difficult to prove intent i…

why is this being downvoted? They stated facts not opinions.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#124

Post by jl2718 »

contemporary343 wrote: post #18

Reading through some of her earlier tweets there seemed to have been conflict around her/ her team pursuing a particular research direction or projects, directions that higher ups were not happy about because of how it might make Google look. This is ultimately the limitation of being a researcher in a company - some topics will be off limits and you’re not allowed to poke around things that will make the company loo…

Are there any publications or results that show what she accomplished as a research scientist at google? What is considered the leading edge of the field of in AI ethics research? Had she accomplished something of great distinction in this field prior to google? Was her google street view result related to ethics? I would assume that ethics research would involve how an AI can learn to act ethically. Perhaps something about how an AI treats a sentient versus non-sentient impediment, like how it would decide whether to stop for ducklings or just run them over, whether it has the ability to learn a function for long-term social implications of its actions, specifically longer than the training stimulus, which is the remarkable function of the human prefrontal lobe, or only considers short-term task reward.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#125

Post by fullstackPM »

jl2718 wrote: post #122
fullstackPM wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that go both ways though? Why was Gebru so confident that the bias is because of something else other than the training dataset? She immediately assumed that there are other items contributing to the bias and devolved the quality of the conversation as well by making those claims in a frustrated/exasperated tone. The most obvious and easiest way to clear this up would be for the original researches to train…

No. The easiest way to clear this up would be for Gebru to make a specific claim that was actually related to the model and include a pull request of her own modifications that she had tested to deliver superior results. This would be called “research”. That is what she was hired to do at Google. For everybody of every race ethnicity orientation able status and background that would be honored to give their best effo…

Of course. Or at the very least, she herself could have trained the model on a "Senegal" dataset and make the findings public.

My only point around her feud with LeCunn is that she threw a fit because people including LeCunn pointed out that it is not necessarily a race thing, and she wanted to give it a race spin without confirming that it was actually the case.

And I am not at all commenting on all this drama around her resignation/being fired without getting a look at the contents of the two emails: the one she sent to Brain Women and the one with her demands. But I know this: if I were to issue an ultimatum to my employer, I am treading dangerous waters and should be able to digest the outcome of that, including being fired.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#126

Post by fullstackPM »

compycom wrote: post #85
fullstackPM wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that go both ways though? Why was Gebru so confident that the bias is because of something else other than the training dataset? She immediately assumed that there are other items contributing to the bias and devolved the quality of the conversation as well by making those claims in a frustrated/exasperated tone. The most obvious and easiest way to clear this up would be for the original researches to train…

The whole point is that it never is trained on a "Senegal" dataset, is it? Why do we always see these errors where white-centric datasets produce white-centric results? While it would be a symmetric situation a vacuum, we do not live in a vacuum. And acknowledging dataset bias by itself doesn't address the bias meaningfully. In practice, we often treat the bias as an exogenous factor when it is not, moving it outside…

Well that is the whole point. The entire controversy could have been cleared up if the original researchers or even Gebru would have trained the model on a "Senegal" dataset, or a dataset diverse enough to their own liking and then make the findings public. That, to me is research. Throwing a fit on twitter because people won't buy that the outcome of this model is racist is not research.

I am not sure why the wording around this has to be so abstract.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#127

Post by thu2111 »

fxtentacle wrote: post #116
jariel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really obviously clear to the point wherein it shouldn't be a discussion. Anyone with two years in any industry has to know this. If you make an ultimatum to your employer, and they don't want to accept, assume that it's over, right then and there. Unless you're Michael Jordan, or have some kind of really existential terms with the company.

I'm surprised that she opted to publicly put the blame on someone and link to their Twitter. That could be interpreted as a dog whistle to her followers to start the public shaming. But at the very least, I'd guess that this will make any potential future employer think twice if they really want to be her manager. And lastly, I remember the name Jeff Dean from reading about advanced AI research, so if someone publicl…

Jeff Dean isn't just someone from advanced AI research. He's one of the longest time Google employees and a key part of the company's success. He's one of the chief engineers behind MapReduce, BigTable, Spanner, the re-awakening of neural network research and many other incredible achievements. At one point inside Google there was a website called "Jeff Dean Facts" similar to the Chuck Norris facts. The guys reputation is out of this world.

He's also a rather mild mannered and very nice man. When I worked there I never heard anyone say anything bad about Dean. He rarely expressed strong opinions even on engineering topics; the sort of guy who prefers to win debates by simply coding up the best solution.

The name Timnit Gebru also rings bells for me. Last time this name came up she was busy chasing Yann LeCun off Twitter with pitchforks. LeCun! One of the other major luminaries of AI research. In fact she stirred up so much trouble and made so many outrageous accusations he quit Twitter altogether. She appears to be a serious troublemaker, far more interested in identity politics than AI. She was an embarrassment to Google before and it's good for them they finally canned her, but seriously, why did it take this long? And who will hire her next? I'm sure someone will be dumb enough to do that but hardly any companies have openings for "ethical AI researchers", and she already burned her bridges at Facebook.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#128

Post by thu2111 »

worker767424 wrote: post #77
throwaway-kmc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a good summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yan... I think it’s clear Gebru was acting in bad faith and LeCunn was baffled and trying to deescalate. Gebru responds to each attempt to deescalate by a reply designed to further rile up Twitter, without actually talking to any of the points LeCunn makes. Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say w…

I wouldn't be shocked if Google saw this drama, saw that she was offering to resign, and was like "that's a freebie."

But that drama was some time ago. She should have been fired on the spot back then, but, at Google women are virtually unfireable, black women doubly so. Whatever she did to get canned like this must have been extreme. Either that or Google is learning how to hold these sorts of employees to the same standards as their less fashionable colleagues.

Edit: incorrectly claimed the spat was before 2020, it wasn't. 2020 just feels like an incredibly long year.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#129

Post by thu2111 »

busrf wrote: post #98
MaximumYComb wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it stinks like a convenient excuse to remove someone who was difficult to work with. Only last week she slandered her bosses on Twitter, which is a public forum.

Matthew Garrett, a senior security researcher at Google, is very critical about Google on his Twitter all the time. As he has pointed out, he's still very employed. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1334382463498391557 Neither of us are on her team at Google. (I'm certainly not and I doubt you are.) We have no idea how easy it is to work with her. Certainly if I were working with an AI ethics researcher I would expect…

Google historically tolerates generic criticism of the firm or its actions. Gebru routinely makes slanderous and offensive allegations against specific individuals, not Google as a whole.

That said, Garrett makes clear his ideological sympathies on Twitter. Undoubtably comments like this one don't endear him to his management chain:

When @computerfemme was fired, the VP of security at Google Cloud sent out an email to the security organisation containing one absolutely false statement and one misleading statement, both of which portrayed her acts in a more negative light.

Pretty serious stuff. He doesn't elaborate on what those claims were. The woman in question was fired from the security team for violating IT security policies: in her words, "All I did was make a popup to share the labor notice Google has to share with its workers", something that Google seems to have recurrent problems with staff doing. In other words she was rewriting the contents of web pages to meet her own political objectives.

If I were the VP of Security at Google I would have serious concerns at that point about insider threats from sympathisers on the security team. You can't be publicly slamming your own VP as dishonest for firing someone who subverted IT policies if you actually work in security.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#130

Post by manux »

jl2718 wrote: post #124
contemporary343 wrote: post #18

Reading through some of her earlier tweets there seemed to have been conflict around her/ her team pursuing a particular research direction or projects, directions that higher ups were not happy about because of how it might make Google look. This is ultimately the limitation of being a researcher in a company - some topics will be off limits and you’re not allowed to poke around things that will make the company loo…

Are there any publications or results that show what she accomplished as a research scientist at google? What is considered the leading edge of the field of in AI ethics research? Had she accomplished something of great distinction in this field prior to google? Was her google street view result related to ethics? I would assume that ethics research would involve how an AI can learn to act ethically. Perhaps somethin…

> Are there any publications or results that show what she accomplished as a research scientist at google?

Yes. [1]

> Had she accomplished something of great distinction in this field prior to google?

Yes. [1]

[1] https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=timni...

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