Live data from Hacker News

Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

ourworldindata.org

431–440 of 642 posts

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasingly, I wonder if the Absent Superpower is going to miss a lot of predictions due to the reduced importance of fossil fuels, which is the main driver of his narrative.

I would rate his series of books more historical fantasy than anything else.

Zeihan is Pop Geopolitics, rendering the subject about as accessible and interesting as it could ever be to a wide audience but is as divergent from the real work as you would expect from pop- anything. Most obviously, Zeihan ignites the reader's imagination of apocalyptic futures without ever explicitly predicting or detailing them.

The future will far more likely turn out to be mundanely unpleasant rather than captivatingly apocalyptic. But that wouldn't keep the audience that Zeihan has on the edge of it's seat and so while many others in his field think that way, they're not garnering the same kind of views.

I find his stuff very engaging and there's a lot to be taken from it, but it should be taken with a skeptical mindset of 'what's the most boring way this might play out' to approach some kind of truth.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#432
post #159

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

The House of Saud has a plan. It isn't going quite as well as they had hoped, but it's going. Aramco was IPO'd. They wanted a trillion dollar valuation, and didn't get it. The next step is to sell that stock before the oil market collapses, preferably leaving themselves with a lot of cash and a minority stake in a much smaller company. Cash is going into technology stocks, venture funds, and international real estate…

From what I know (and that's not much), they've already spent the past decade or two heavily investing in real estate all over the world, from the opulent vanity projects like the Palm Island, to tons of highrise / office buildings all over the world.

I mean if you own a skyscraper in NY you're basically set for life. Multiple lives.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#433

You know what's amazing? Farmers in rural Pakistan choosing to prefer solar to irrigate their crops (panels + VFD/inverter + 10 HP 3-phase motor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfNgF0WTeCM Or grinding wheat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G2evJOiU9I The comments in these video are all about how much does it cost, what is your contact number, etc. Clearly this is a sea-change. Also amazing that they all have cell…

Please help me with maths in the first video. The motor is 10 HP which is approx 7.5 kW powered by 18 x 320 W = 5760 W solar panels. Inverter and cable loss are not even accounted. How its gonna run on a cloudy day?

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#434

You know what's amazing? Farmers in rural Pakistan choosing to prefer solar to irrigate their crops (panels + VFD/inverter + 10 HP 3-phase motor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfNgF0WTeCM Or grinding wheat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G2evJOiU9I The comments in these video are all about how much does it cost, what is your contact number, etc. Clearly this is a sea-change. Also amazing that they all have cell…

I'll admit to not knowing anything about Pakistan, let alone rural Pakistan, but do they have a national power grid there? At least with solar, you own and control the power production yourself, and (in theory) there's no hidden costs.

Meanwhile, I live in a country where on the one side they're pushing for and subsidizing solar energy, but at the same side they're forcing people to change their meters so that the energy companies can pay you less for power you feed back to the grid; with a 'dumb' meter, it was an even exchange, meaning that you only paid for the power you did not produce yourself. With the new system, you (I think?) only get 25% of the amount you sell, compared to the amount you pay.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#435
post #292
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Index funds will buy at the market value, no? Is the market still overvaluing oil given knowledge of renewables?

Renewables as a utility power source won't stop our reliance on oil. Fossil fuels like coal and natural gas are on the chopping board, but oil still has considerable permeation through our lives and a very large conversion cost and social inertia to overcome yet. Plastics, shipping fuels, many manufacturing processes use oil during manufacturing but perhaps not in the final product. Vehicles are still decades away fr…

> Container shipping switching to nuclear would be a quick change once regulations are in place for one example.

This comment sent me looking, and I didn't see anyone making any kind of move towards installing a regulatory environment that is conducive towards a "quick win" for nuclear-powered container ships. This Flexport article [1] was interesting, but didn't mention any such legislative moves afoot. This article [2] lays some numbers down.

One way I can see to introduce and sustain nuclear-powered container vessels is to expand US naval shipyards that currently handle nuclear carrier and submarine construction to take on the container vessels' commissioning, refueling, maintenance, and decommissioning, design vessels with much longer service lifespans than current container ships to amortize the cost over a much longer period, standardize the power plants on existing designs, and carve out specially-secured multimodal ports with preferential rates for the nuclear-powered container vessels with much faster container moving infrastructure. In the US political-economic landscape, this would spread out the current military expenditures on the power plant R&D, manufacturing capex, and opex costs, into a wider market.

It would be an interesting geopolitical power play a nation, if the nation subsidized from taxpayer funds the regulatory compliance and national flagging expenses, to make a play to dominate and control the global container shipping service market. Nearly half of container ship opex costs are fuel and port costs [3]. Subsidize away the ruinous regulatory and security compliance costs of nuclear, crater the existing bunker-fuel powered shipping market rates, and controlling global shipping could be wielded as a significant geopolitical tool. Certainly cheaper than the trillions spent on the US military, and delivers leverage at the logistical and supply chain level. I can easily see China do this too, especially with their OBOR initiative. If this came to pass by any nation, then I'm sure it would rightly alarm a lot of people and nations.

[1] https://www.flexport.com/blog/nuclear-powered-cargo-ships/

[2] https://cleantechnica.com/2017/01/28/now-time-nuclear-cargo-...

[3] https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2250

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#436

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

In theory that's nice, but in practice, you need power when you need it, and the energy companies / pricing will adapt. My parents had variable rates for a while, so electricity was cheaper at night, so they'd do things like the laundry at night. But in practice, the difference was negligible, especially as we started to add more and more daytime technology (like PC's) to the house.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#437
post #12

The article says the world relies on fossil fuel for energy because it's cheaper. That's true. It doesn't mention that the world relies on it because it's reliable. It doesn't disappear for 6 months of the year, or stop producing for 3 out of 5 days or during peak demand periods. Make renewables cheaper and more reliable and they will replace fossil fuels in a snap. Cheaper is not enough if it doesn't do the job.

I don't think the term "reliable" is the right term to use there. One should distinguish between reliability and availability. Renewables tend to be extremely reliable - why would a solar cell fail? - but not always available. Fossil or nuclear powerplants are quite available - they can run 24/7 on full power, but not always reliable. Especially nuclear power plants have a not so great reliability. They are often shut down completely and without warning for smaller non dangerous events. Also, in certain weather conditions, cooling of power plants is an issue so they have to be shut down. Also, for all fossil fuel plants, there is existing storage to compensate on a failing supply change (oil crisis) which have to be calculated in the costs.

Of course, the availability of renewables is an issue that has to be dealt with in planning the grid. If they are cheap enough, overprovisioning helps a lot, having larger grid interconnects help - even if there is not always wind in Germany, there should be pretty always be wind in Germany or France as an example. We still can change the way existing plants produce electricity - adding pumps to hydroelectric plants to convert them into storage, store the gas used in biomass plants rather than constantly burning it. And of course we need to build up additional storage. But that is just at the beginning of the learning curve, as most grids currently can just absorb all renewables as they are produced.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#438
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global energy grid?

You really want to be dependent on other countries for your vital infrastructure? Imagine if we go to war with china/russia, and they shut down energy exports to the US causing rolling blackouts everywhere.

The obvious solution would be not to go to war with china/russia unless they shut down energy exports. And of course they wouldn't, as they depend on selling and also importing electricity at times. We even have practical experiences with that. Germany for many decades got their natural gas from the sovjet union and russia. Despite of the cold war, and it indeed was just short of a war state, gas supplies never were cut. Because cutting gas supply to Germany would have been a simple way to apply pressure, but not a cheap one. It would either have triggered a war or at minimum that after recovering from the cut, Germany would have been permanentely lost as a trading partner. So there was never a supply cut in many decades.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#439
One very hopeful, usually neglected point is that we don't need to produce anywhere near the same amount of renewable energy as the total enthalpy (raw energy content) of the carbon sources to maintain the same level of service.

Electric vehicles convert power to motion several times as efficiently as internal-combustion equipment (except ships and aircraft), so much less total energy is needed to move the same mass of (especially) people and cars. This is most immediately visible in the current usefulness of electric scooters.

(Big ships are already 70+% efficient, so there is less room for improvement. Small aircraft can claim benefits similar to cars, but airliners will suffer losses converting to (e.g.) LH2 or LCH4, and/or after the electric motors have worked; but there is still room for some improvement.)

Similarly, and surprisingly to many, the same applies to building heating systems, where better than 300% efficiency of heat pumps means that 1 kW of electric power produces 3+ kW of warm air. (The extra 2 kW comes from outside air.

So, today, while we still get more than 80% of raw energy from petroleum, renewables driving electric systems already have reduced that to 60% of actual delivered service.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#440

Are they also so cheap without subsidies? I feel like without subsidies and without carbon taxes, they are no match for fossil fuels.

Yes, those graphs show the pure productions costs. Which is actually not fair, because coal might have low production costs, but the damage to the atmosphere isn't included in the calculation, so carbon taxes are not artificial, but partially express the actual costs of coal.
Post reply on HN