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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#631
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re talking about depositions, so the knowledge of an investigation followed by destruction of the data (whether intention or not) by handing the device over would be a crime. I can’t hand my phone over to the police and remote wipe it with iCloud, for example. Destruction when handing to a mugger is still ok.

Well it wouldn't be the user destroying data. Judge: "Hand over that phone right now" You: "Sure, I can hand it over, but all data will then get wiped by the device automatically due to Google/Apple/Samsung's anti-theft design and I don't have a choice" After that it's upto the Judge whether to proceed with the handover or not. It will be the judge who destroyed the data if so.

Judges don't appreciate clever tricks of any kind, and neither does the law. Anything you think of that sounds like a clever trick is not something you should actually try.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#632
post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

Can't upvote this enough. Never give these remote administration rights to an employer on any personal device (phone typically, but any).

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#633
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assume that HR can view EVERYTHING on your phone, because they can Patently false, for many values of ‘everything’ and ‘phone’. An MDM has zero visibility into an iPhone’s browsing history, iMessage content, or the content of any app not installed directly by the MDM. So things like Signal, WhatsApp, and even the default mail app are off limits.

Why is this being downvoted? Is it not accurate? If so could someone explain where djrogers is wrong?

It is correct, with the exception that MDM can erase your phone and can install a VPN on it. But you can easily check if it did or not.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the takeaway is that the hard line for Google is being able to rootkit your phone

Then don't give your phone to Google. Don't use personal phone for work. Ask them for a phone if they want you to use it. Why is this difficult? Why complain about something that is 100% in your control? Employer that has thousands of employees don't have the time to amend contracts on per employee basis. Seems fair to me. Google has HIPA-level access for personal data, even some medical data about people, security i…

IDK the legal details of the contract, but Google has root level access to all Android phones with gapps installed. It's definitely possible for them to figure out which phone you use privately and rootkit it.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#635
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't required to have any phone. If you have a phone and want it to have access to corp resources, you need to agree to some conditions. I have coworkers who choose to keep their phone personal only, and others who choose to have the company pay for them to have a separate work phone. (Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)

I did that. I had a company laptop and phone. I usually left them at the office. For extra privacy, I stopped my personal phone from connecting to the company WiFi. Then Google bought my home ISP (WebPass). Now I use a router-based VPN.

> For extra privacy, I stopped my personal phone from connecting to the company WiFi.

In a large enough campus, wouldn't the company also operate the cell tower? (I feel like I should know this, but I don't.)

> Now I use a router-based VPN.

This is not really useful except as a way to make your internet really slow. VPN providers are a lot less trustworthy than ISPs, that's why they can afford all those podcast ads.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics. I don't doubt that a great many unions are horrible. For a great many reasons, unions are often, but not always, structured horribly with badly mismatched incentives, almost no democracy, and poor accountability. There are reasons for this, that can and have been addressed. You're simply never goin…

How could they not be toxic? The ability to advocate for yourself has been given to someone else, over something as intimately personal and important as the labour you undertake for the majority of your waking hours. They are your only advocate, in the absence of strong regulation and legislation, because in a union arrangement it is inappropriate for the employer to advocate for the employee against the union. I don…

Your employers are interested in their interest. If you're going to be using your money in an interest category where your win is their loss, they were care proportionally to your effectiveness, no matter the methods.

Now :

>How could they not be? The ability to advocate for yourself has been given to someone else, over something as intimately personal and important as the labour you undertake for the majority of your waking hours.

You can structure a union in such a way that hierarchy is very weak and involvement is direct. The reasons why this often isn't the case are interesting, and you should read about them.

The root if the issue is this : your ability to advocate for yourself is almost nil. You need to get together with your fellow workers to have any impact. By doing so, you will lose some of the flexibility in your advocacy, but will receive greatly increased power.

Literally the only politically effective lobbying group for the average person is a union. There have been many studies done about it.

I have second hand experience with four unions, and first hand experience with two. All but one were great, and the one that wasn't was clearly deficient for obvious structural and social reasons thah could be addressed.

In any case, you're free to continue wasting your money. You will be contributing to PACs that will eventually get bureucratized, ossified, ostracized, and turned against you, and because you plan on aligning yourself with extremely narrow organizations that lack the power to withold labour, they will collapse and crash.

Not only that, but success in such politics is a question of money and connections. The entire tech sector, totalling tens of trillions of dollars in valuation, is better connected than you are, will be able to vastly outspend you, and will do so in a much more efficient way than you can via a heterogenous network of PACs.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#637
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it wouldn't be the user destroying data. Judge: "Hand over that phone right now" You: "Sure, I can hand it over, but all data will then get wiped by the device automatically due to Google/Apple/Samsung's anti-theft design and I don't have a choice" After that it's upto the Judge whether to proceed with the handover or not. It will be the judge who destroyed the data if so.

Judges don't appreciate clever tricks of any kind, and neither does the law. Anything you think of that sounds like a clever trick is not something you should actually try.

No, it wouldn't even be my trick. It would be a feature of the design of the phone and I, the user, would not even have a choice in that implementation.

The primary motive of that design would be against thieves, but it would incidentally happen to work on judges as well. The owners of the phones would have no choice.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the person didn't really want the job. If they wanted it, they could have just gotten a company phone and laptop, used them only for work, and kept them in the office. Company devices are occasionally stolen for their internal data: emails, docs, code, and config. This data can be useful to investors and competitors. Companies hire expensive people to limit the amount of data exposed in theft incidents. Under…

> When they showed up HR started with "But that isn't how we use it, we would never access your personal data." So, what, was HR lying? More to the point, Google shouldn't be putting critical business information on personal devices, that's a security risk. If they're that worried about it, they should be issuing every employee a separate phone. "We don't trust you enough to have your own device without a rootkit, bu…

Google Security has a list of supported devices & OS versions that can run their rootkit. Google corporate accounts cannot sign in on other devices. When a device gets too old and rolls off the supported list, they automatically log it out and wipe any company data on it. I believe most large companies operate like this.

Google is actually more flexible than most companies: Any employee can get a company phone and employees are allowed to use their personal phones if they want (and don't mind the rootkit and spying). Surprisingly, a lot of people opt for the rootkit & spying to avoid carrying two phones. This saves the company some money on phones & mobile service contracts. And it makes those employees happy.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched my parents suffer throughout their careers because their Unions were politically toxic and also deigned it necessary to keep their wages below market in order to apply pressure on the employer to raise the wages of others in the bargaining unit. As though a lineman and a telecontrol technologist are similarly skilled and trained. My father spent the better part of a decade trying to hire his replacement bec…

If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics. I don't doubt that a great many unions are horrible. For a great many reasons, unions are often, but not always, structured horribly with badly mismatched incentives, almost no democracy, and poor accountability. There are reasons for this, that can and have been addressed. You're simply never goin…

> If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics.

This made me laugh. If you have to fix the union, then really all you've done is worsen your situation.

"And now you have two problems."

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could they not be toxic? The ability to advocate for yourself has been given to someone else, over something as intimately personal and important as the labour you undertake for the majority of your waking hours. They are your only advocate, in the absence of strong regulation and legislation, because in a union arrangement it is inappropriate for the employer to advocate for the employee against the union. I don…

Your employers are interested in their interest. If you're going to be using your money in an interest category where your win is their loss, they were care proportionally to your effectiveness, no matter the methods. Now : >How could they not be? The ability to advocate for yourself has been given to someone else, over something as intimately personal and important as the labour you undertake for the majority of you…

I mostly donate to NGOs and political parties directly; I get to see my dollars go directly to those who help those in need, and as a party member I get the opportunity to shake hands with legislators and talk policy with them directly. I helped get the husband of a friend elected mayor of my city. This has had a meaningful impact.

I see unions having enormous utility for those living where there is effectively one employer, and who have no real market for their labour. That's where unions shine.

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