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Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#161

Post by pdonis »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #103
pdonis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternative would you propose? You can't just remove Boeing as a company: they have tens of thousands of existing aircraft in the field that need to be maintained, and a large number of people who were not at fault in all of this whose jobs would be eliminated. So how do you hold the proper people accountable without doing so much collateral damage that the cost of that outweighs the benefits? Also, responsibili…

The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless. > " collateral damage so cost of that outweighs the benefits" Do we have a system a justice or do we not? You seem to suggest some people are above the law. Let's see, could that possibly lead to corruption and abuse of power?

> You seem to suggest some people are above the law.

I'm suggesting no such thing. I'm simply pointing out that "justice" is not as simple as you are making it sound.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#162

Post by pdonis »

quotha wrote: post #143
pdonis wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they didn't solve the physics problems created by the engine position The engine position, in itself, isn't terribly unusual; the 757 and 767 both have engines in similar forward positions on the wings and have a similar pitch up moment due to the engines at high angles of attack. So do a number of Airbus models. Designing flight controls to deal with this issue is not new and has been well tested. The particular i…

> If the plane had been designed as a new type from the start, the engine position would not have been an issue Because the engineers would not have positioned the engines there in the first place.

> Because the engineers would not have positioned the engines there in the first place.

That would have been one possible approach, yes, but it would have involved other changes, the main one being longer landing gear and a higher ground clearance.

My point is that even having the engines in a similar position to the existing one would not have posed a problem if the plane had been a new type. Other planes in service have engines in a similar position. What caused the problem was having the engines in that position and having to match the stick force curve of the existing 737 in order to keep the same type rating.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#164

Post by pdonis »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #103
pdonis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternative would you propose? You can't just remove Boeing as a company: they have tens of thousands of existing aircraft in the field that need to be maintained, and a large number of people who were not at fault in all of this whose jobs would be eliminated. So how do you hold the proper people accountable without doing so much collateral damage that the cost of that outweighs the benefits? Also, responsibili…

The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless. > " collateral damage so cost of that outweighs the benefits" Do we have a system a justice or do we not? You seem to suggest some people are above the law. Let's see, could that possibly lead to corruption and abuse of power?

> The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless.

And the obvious defense to that is that the FAA certified the plane. Then what?

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#165

Post by __m »

outworlder wrote: post #77
Analemma_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original 737 wasn't broken-by-design in the way the Max is. The Max _requires_ software kludges to paper over its deliberate mistakes; that's very different from just having a few bugs to work out in a fundamentally sound design.

I'm not so sure I'd call it a 'kludge'. The implementation is certainly not "elegant". It's like this random batch job that triggers when some conditions are satisfied and does its own thing without regard for anything else, sure. Not integrated with the auto-pilot, does not display anything in the panel. We have plenty of aircraft (even though most are military) which are aerodynamically unstable, and require fly-by…

Well, they have ejection seats.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#166

Post by nerdbaggy »

ipnon wrote: post #154
Havoc wrote: post #87

Don’t care. Show me real movement on the corporate mindset. The plane is a STEM engineer fixable issue. The corporate mess that pushed this across flying clearance is not. I’ll aim to fly airbus until Boeing understands that difference and fixes the root cause.

Airbus aircraft are generally smoother and quieter rides in my experience.

Airbus older planes have their own problem of fume events causing all sorts of serious sicknesses http://avherald.com/h?search_term=Fume+event&opt=0&dosearch=...

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#167

Post by dnautics »

pdonis wrote: post #164
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless. > " collateral damage so cost of that outweighs the benefits" Do we have a system a justice or do we not? You seem to suggest some people are above the law. Let's see, could that possibly lead to corruption and abuse of power?

> The alternative is obvious - corporate manslaughter charges, aimed at management that knew plane was unsafe and pushed on regardless. And the obvious defense to that is that the FAA certified the plane. Then what?

737 max should be permanently decertified, boeing should take all associated losses. FAA officials should be charged with manslaughter.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#168

Post by ulfw »

Such stupid PR. What was the point? Prove that NOT EVERY SINGLE 737MAX FLIGHT ends in death?

I mean come on. Of course it won't. It didn't before the long recertification process started either.

What about every 10 or 100,000th flight though? They gonna do PR stunts for that long?

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#169

Post by cupofcoffee »

cj wrote: post #39
ogre_codes wrote: post #2

In a weird way, having the Max grounded during 2020 turned out to be lucky timing on Boeing's part. The airlines slowdown due to COVID likely gave them some serious breathing room while they got their shit together. Now hopefully they actually did get their shit together.

Not just timing, but COVID is a great diversion from the safety issue entirely (in the eyes of the public) Anyone walking onto an aircraft today is thinking "I hope I don't get a virus" instead of "I hope my plane doesn't crash".

>Anyone walking onto an aircraft today is thinking "I hope I don't get a virus" instead of "I hope my plane doesn't crash".

Why would you think that?

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