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Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

reuters.com

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Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#51

Post by Analemma_ »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #13
jimbob45 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. If they’d taken the time to scrap the 737 Max and move to a new design, they’d have had the time and the public would have eaten the new product up. Instead, they doubled down and are now going to try to have to sell a product that many will refuse to ever fly on, myself included.

The original 737 had some early issues also. Tail rudder problems that resulted in crashes is one that comes to mind. They were fixed and now nobody thinks twice about flying them and their long-term safety record is excellent.

The original 737 wasn't broken-by-design in the way the Max is. The Max _requires_ software kludges to paper over its deliberate mistakes; that's very different from just having a few bugs to work out in a fundamentally sound design.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#52

Post by xiphias2 »

kelnos wrote: post #29
Xenoamorphous wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are airlines even obliged to disclose the type of plane? One of them even changed the type of plane and destination airport (same city though) for one of my flights.

I don't think they're obligated, but many airlines do. Changes do happen, though, so the plane listed at booking may not be the plane you fly on.

Isn't at least the system for past flights public?

Flightradar24 has the information: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa9750/#26332420

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#53

Post by xiphias2 »

salawat wrote: post #9

Problem will not be resolved for me until indications of real cultural shift happen in a direction where safety and Quality take some level of priority over brute fiscal efficiency. Aerospace should be a cost-sink first, a financial growth engine second. Often, a cost-sink is actually both at the same time with the growth in industry around them that new, costly, realistically risky work creates. Whereas optimizing f…

For me having good statistics is good enough. The question is how many flights are necessary for 737 Max 8 to overcome the bad start in its statistic. It needs to go back to 0.2 per million flights, which needs about 10 million flights more to prove itself (taking about 5-10 years maybe)

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#54

Post by xiphias2 »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #31

I love how hard parts of HN falls into the never 737 hysteria, even though its less probable than dying from the nearest sharp object.

,,The global fleet of nearly 400 737 MAXs flew 500,000 flights from March 2017 to March 2019, and experienced two fatal accidents for an accident rate of four per million flights when it was grounded. The previous generations of the Boeing 737 averaged 0.2 accidents per million flights.[180]'' - from Wikipedia

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#55

Post by salawat »

throwaway201103 wrote: post #13
jimbob45 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. If they’d taken the time to scrap the 737 Max and move to a new design, they’d have had the time and the public would have eaten the new product up. Instead, they doubled down and are now going to try to have to sell a product that many will refuse to ever fly on, myself included.

The original 737 had some early issues also. Tail rudder problems that resulted in crashes is one that comes to mind. They were fixed and now nobody thinks twice about flying them and their long-term safety record is excellent.

The issue isn't a really a physical one in principle here. It's an issue of corporate accountability.

You had corners cut to deliver a product that ended up killing people. There is no real room for doubt in that just from the material we have available.

So, what? What happens? What should happen? Everything go back to "normal"? Let the same people who ran things continue to profit off their wrongdoing? Accept that as long as you're one of only two rides in town that you have the security to deliver and recover from delivering a lethal product?

That's the issue. That's the reality we're taking out of this. It isn't even self-regulating anymore. There is no bankruptcy, no hammer, no reallocation of assets to those that can wield them more responsibly, no reset. Just a token gesture. The same Goliath just shrugs and moves on.

While I get that might be tenable or desirable to some, I'm not one of them. Realistic risk of falling flat on your face, being held to account, and not being able to just shrug it off and keep going keeps you honest.

Once you lose that, "What's a life here and there? Doesn't bother me. Can't make an onelette without cracking a few eggs."

The economy is not an omelette, and people are not eggs. Either we serve it, or it serves us. I know which side of that assertion I'm on.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#56

Post by ogre_codes »

jimbob45 wrote: post #6
ogre_codes wrote: post #2

In a weird way, having the Max grounded during 2020 turned out to be lucky timing on Boeing's part. The airlines slowdown due to COVID likely gave them some serious breathing room while they got their shit together. Now hopefully they actually did get their shit together.

I think I disagree. If they’d taken the time to scrap the 737 Max and move to a new design, they’d have had the time and the public would have eaten the new product up. Instead, they doubled down and are now going to try to have to sell a product that many will refuse to ever fly on, myself included.

Most people don't know what manufacturer of the aircraft they are flying in, let alone the specific model. I haven't flown in quite a while, but when I did I didn't research what model aircraft I was flying in. I doubt more than a small handful of people do.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#57

Post by mocheeze »

ghayes wrote: post #42
DevX101 wrote: post #7

I recently had the frivolous idea of creating a flight search engine for flights that DID NOT use the 737 Max. Any actual interest in this?

Serious question: if an airline changes the aircraft, is that grounds for a refund on your flight?

Doesn't appear so: https://thepointsguy.com/2017/05/refund-when-airline-changes...

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#58

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

yyy888sss wrote: post #8

Maybe they should have bit the bullet and fully redesigned the 737. Presumably future engines will be bigger still, will they just tack them onto this old design as well? At the end of the day this is just a software fix.

Every time I say this I get told I don't know what I'm talking about.

You shouldn't be able to say "we followed all regulations" when people die and leave it at that. They should stop playing games and just design an aircraft.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#59

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

MAGZine wrote: post #48
yyy888sss wrote: post #8

Maybe they should have bit the bullet and fully redesigned the 737. Presumably future engines will be bigger still, will they just tack them onto this old design as well? At the end of the day this is just a software fix.

As with software, restarting from scratch can introduce many, many bugs. Boeing planes are super safe from millions of flighthours and the learnings and failures from before. The older aircraft annealed into a state of safety and reliability from known-ness. "fully redesigning," introduces a lot more risk.

>Boeing planes are super safe from millions of flighthours and the learnings and failures from before.

Which you use to build off of.

Re: Boeing's upgraded 737 Max completes first flight with media onboard

#60

Post by lukehutch »

DevX101 wrote: post #7

I recently had the frivolous idea of creating a flight search engine for flights that DID NOT use the 737 Max. Any actual interest in this?

Planes can be switched out last-minute. I plan to check the plane type at the gate every time I fly for the next 10 years, and if it's a MAX, I'll reschedule my flight on the spot.

They claim they solved the software problem, but they didn't solve the physics problems created by the engine position (which necessitated the software in the first place).

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