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No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

sciencemag.org

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Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#111

Post by Someone »

blhack wrote: post #48

Does anybody have a good link for a layman's overview of how mRNA vaccines work? Lot's of nervousness from people around this, and would love to be able to help quell some of that.

It ‘injects’ RNA into your cells that causes them to make part of a virus (parts of the outside of it, not the parts that make it reproduce).

Those parts, in turn, trigger your immune system to build up defenses against the virus so that, if it encounters the real virus, it can contain the infection.

mRNA degrades fairly rapidly, so this won’t keep triggering your immune system (but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine#Side_effects_and_r... says the mechanism used to do the ‘inject’ part may trigger its own immune reaction)

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#112

Post by CyberRabbi »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #102
jimbob45 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in ... four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team, told Reuters. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It’s an unproven method of vaccine creation and hasn’t been tested by anyone. I really can’t imagine this holding up in courts though.

In the US it's not possible to sue for damages caused by vaccines. I'm sure the courts will find a way to make it work. The concern seems to be that stifling vaccine development for the benefit of a few just isn't worth the risk of future plagues.

What do you mean by the “benefit of a few”? How does anyone benefit from stifling vaccine development?

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#113

Post by dnhz »

orblivion wrote: post #98
dnautics wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how Lupe doesn't simplify it so far to say "it never goes in reverse".

I'm curious what those rare cases are.

Viruses! RNA viruses like SARS-cov-2. They make the cell reverse transcribe their RNA cargo into DNA, and then the cell produces more viruses.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#114

Post by JulianMorrison »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #110
tpmx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant criteria for the question "does it it exclude old, fragile people with various common pre-existing conditions?" (not exhaustive, but indicative): Included: Pre-existing conditions are okay as long as they are in a stable condition (defined as no significant change in therapy etc for the 3 months before enrollment). Excluded: Immunosuppressive or immunodeficient state, asplenia, recurrent severe infections (H…

I think (from my parents and in-laws) that immunosuppression is normally associated with current cancer treatment. So, for example, it looks like this protocol would exclude people getting chemotherapy. Happy to be proven wrong on this by someone with more information.

Also transplant recipients take suppressants so their immune system doesn't reject the graft.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#115

Post by iguy »

packetlost wrote: post #44
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it cures late stage cancer a few million per treatment would actually be a bargain. Edit: I have no clue why people would rather something not exist than for something to exist but for it to be too expensive.

Sure, but that doesn't make it any more affordable for the average person.

Back-of-envelope numbers: US GDP per capita * US life expectancy is about 5 million dollars. Healthcare is maybe 18% of GPD and climbing, call it a million a person and rising. A majority (but not a huge one) is government spending.

I don't exactly know the breakdown, but it must skew towards the old & sick -- like cancer patients. It's not inconceivable that million-dollar cancer treatments could become widespread.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#116

Post by chimeracoder »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #110
tpmx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant criteria for the question "does it it exclude old, fragile people with various common pre-existing conditions?" (not exhaustive, but indicative): Included: Pre-existing conditions are okay as long as they are in a stable condition (defined as no significant change in therapy etc for the 3 months before enrollment). Excluded: Immunosuppressive or immunodeficient state, asplenia, recurrent severe infections (H…

I think (from my parents and in-laws) that immunosuppression is normally associated with current cancer treatment. So, for example, it looks like this protocol would exclude people getting chemotherapy. Happy to be proven wrong on this by someone with more information.

> I think (from my parents and in-laws) that immunosuppression is normally associated with current cancer treatment.

There are other reasons a person would be considered immunosuppressed, and plenty of non-chemotherapy drugs that have immunosuppressive effects. But yes, cancer is one of them.

It would make no sense to include immunosuppressed people in the initial trials for a vaccine, the purpose of which is to determine whether a vaccine can induce an immune response.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#117

Post by abootstrapper »

whb07 wrote: post #99
marvin wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soooooo... If you were somewhat pragmatic, you'd acknowledge that a lot of people, maybe even a majority, actually support various social distancing measures and shutdowns. These measures certainly have a negative economic impact, irrespective of whether a negative economic impact would happen just due to the voluntary measures of these people. And regardless, wouldn't it be a net gain to deploy a vaccine? It would c…

I agree we should have a vaccine, I do not agree with mandatory shutdowns and all the negative down stream side effects which are PROVEN to be larger than the disease itself.

Gonna need a citation on that all caps “proven.”

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#118

Post by shabda »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #110
tpmx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant criteria for the question "does it it exclude old, fragile people with various common pre-existing conditions?" (not exhaustive, but indicative): Included: Pre-existing conditions are okay as long as they are in a stable condition (defined as no significant change in therapy etc for the 3 months before enrollment). Excluded: Immunosuppressive or immunodeficient state, asplenia, recurrent severe infections (H…

I think (from my parents and in-laws) that immunosuppression is normally associated with current cancer treatment. So, for example, it looks like this protocol would exclude people getting chemotherapy. Happy to be proven wrong on this by someone with more information.

Also, Anybody who has received an organ transplant is immunosuppressed. They take immunosuppressive drugs so that the transplanted organ is not rejected.

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#119

Post by svrb »

mam2 wrote: post #97
jimbob45 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in ... four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team, told Reuters. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It’s an unproven method of vaccine creation and hasn’t been tested by anyone. I really can’t imagine this holding up in courts though.

Why not ? I mean why would they be responsible for something they cant test ? Thats the part that makes no sense to me. If you are (healthily) afraid of a vaccine because its not tested enough, just take your responsibility and dont take it. Or take it but dont come complain and attack other people for something that no one can do anything about now.

> just take your responsibility and dont take it

Is that going to be allowed? Do we seriously believe at this point that governments aren't going to make these vaccines mandatory, if not for everyone explicitly then at least in practice by making them mandatory for access to public services and spaces?

Re: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe Covid-19

#120

Post by jokethrowaway »

smt88 wrote: post #51
SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are failing the Marshmallow test.

You are accidentally correct. You seem to think the Marshmallow Test is a test of willpower. That interpretation is debunked. It is actually a test of poverty. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-research-marsh...

That's a very interesting take!

I'm not sure how much to read into it, there are so many variables to consider I doubt this study qualifies as science (like most of social science).

Incidentally, I failed the marshmallow test and I tend to behave and think with a scarcity mindset (I can't tolerate wasting food, it's hard for me to spend money). My parents are quite well off and went to uni. Their parents started middle class and made some money. I bet my parents wouldn't have failed the test - and they definitely always stocked the house with food and could provide resources and a stable environment. My grandparents had a harder life (thanks to the wars, most likely) and share the same mindset I had (even though I never spent much time with them, we lived far away).

I wonder how much of that it's actually genetic, more than environmental. You could still find correlations compatible with the study, if it were. Passing down the "poor" genes would create genealogical lines of poor families.

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