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The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

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Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#51

Post by novok »

eganist wrote: post #27
AriaMinaei wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.

> Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing th…

Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful!

Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere.

This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why.

Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#52

Post by thatguy0900 »

maininformer wrote: post #46

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to le…

Funny, I wonder how many guests didn't want to stay for dinner but felt it would be rude to say no. I now I would have stayed out of politeness if someone asked me to stay for dinner while I was in their house.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#53

Post by riahi »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #39
tetrisgm wrote: post #21

It's funny because my Persian friends describe that their relatives expect taarof to be a thing elsewhere. Here's an example: my friend was not in the mood for breakfast. The host took it as a sign that he was taarofing. He insisted that he wasn't. His persistence was seen as a sign that he really wants breakfast. The only way to make it stop while being polite was to take a bite. He was furious!

Does taarof have anything like an "safe word", that lets you be 100% clear that you mean what you're saying? It sounds from your story that the answer is no, but I wonder if it's different between close friends or family members where there's less pressure to be impeccably polite.

My family always used the phrase “taarof nakon”. However, this then leads to recursive questions of “by agreeing to not taarof, did they just agree out of taarof?”

I agree with the other poster who hates it; it’s an obnoxious method of social interaction only enjoyed by people who like drama.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#54

Post by erehweb »

corty wrote: post #41
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #6

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

As a German, I am amused by USians or British claiming to be direct in social interactions. There are books and courses about how the english sentence "we might have to reconsider" means "no". How you would offer sweets twice, because of course the first answer will be "no" and the other party will want to be "convinced" to say "Yes" on the second round. How "a little help needed" means "big catastrophe, need a lot o…

British (especially English) culture is famously indirect, and this is well known in the UK - see e.g. the popular show "Very British Problems".

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#55

Post by eganist »

novok wrote: post #51
eganist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing th…

Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happ…

> Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?

I'm quite fond of Baha'i culture, honestly. Even though I don't put stock in the religion itself, they seem fairly dedicated towards mental discipline and radical candor (honesty of mind etc). And it's only with these circles of (Persian) friends that I haven't observed the kind of backbiting I've been railing against in my comments here.

Really, taarof is exactly as gross as I'm saying it is, because when it goes wrong (and it goes wrong a minority of times but frequently enough to matter), it does so in spectacular fashion. It spawns the kind of vitriol that ruins friendships with grudges, all because someone ended up having to give or do something they didn't want to do but projected for the sake of image.

It's unnecessary, it's rarely amusing, and it breeds malcontent.

Thanks for listening. I recognize it sounds extreme, but I've never seen anything good come from it in any of the many circles I'm in.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#56

Post by openfuture »

eganist wrote: post #27
AriaMinaei wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.

> Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing th…

Weird. I've been to Iran and had many discussions about this custom 'taarof' except(!) it is my _northerner_ custom... no Iranian mentioned they had the same culture and I'm sure someone would have! I talked to kids, expats and others who wouldn't hide such facts.

Where I am from a host is obligated to offer a traveler all they can, even if it means they won't survive the winter, the traveler is obligated to decline since it could be that his acceptance of such offerings will starve (kill) his hosts come winter.

My insistence on declining kind offers was considered quite rude and I got called out for it a few times, prompting such discussions, absolutely no one ever at any point in time mentioned that there was such a custom in Iran.

There seemed to be a universal acknowledgment that the Iranian custom was the opposite; you should accept all offerings and leave leftovers to signal you are done eating because if you finish your food and refuse more it suggests that your host is poor which slights them.

Idk if this conspiracy you describe will explain away my experience but just figured I'd share for other readers.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#57

Post by behnamoh »

owenversteeg wrote: post #49
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tarof isn't an impediment to learning the language, but it is an annoyance that a foreigner would have to constantly deal with if he chose Iran for a place to immerse himself in the language. > Furthermore, taarof is part of the Iranian culture. These little cultural differences are what makes this world beautiful... Even Iranians themselves often don't find tarof beautiful. One might claim that tarof is a "part of I…

Yes, of course there are Iranians on both sides of the issue, but from what I can tell the vast majority of its critics are a handful of young Iranians living outside of Iran. My experience is that Iranians in Iran are favorable towards taarof and big users of it, and Iranians outside of Iran are very pessimistic about it, as they generally are about most things Iran-related.

> as they generally are about most things Iran-related.

While I agree with the rest of your comment, as an Iranian, I cannot completely agree with this part.

Many Iranians living abroad actually miss these little social cues, and if there aren't Persian restaurants and neighborhoods in their city, they become homesick easier than, say, the Indians and the Chinese. Being able to at least practice some of these social cues would help them avoid that problem and feel like _home_ in a foreign culture.

Side note:

Comparing the American and Iranian culture, lots of things are similar (people want to have a happy life and provide for their family). But the US culture is much more _individualistic_ than Iran. So if you come here from Iran, people - despite being generally good and nice - might seem distant at first. Once you settle in the new society however, you learn that there are other ways of life as well, and you start to appreciate the things in the new culture that were rare back home. For example, Americans are generally careful about following the rules and the law, which is kinda missed in Iran, because many Iranians are ok with being _flexible_ with the rules. In Iran I always found that annoying, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that in the US. This of course does not mean that I would find most Iran-related things wrong/problematic.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#58

Post by codezero »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #47
bane wrote: post #12

There's a similar cultural etiquette I've observed amongst Koreans around paying for the bill after eating a meal out together. It sometimes almost erupts into physical violence as several parties all fight for the bill in order to pay it.

Yeah, combine with alcohol, I've seen full on fights erupt over this shit. I think the younger generation has a bit less issues with these shenanigans, but I don't hang out without enough "real" (aka not raised in the US/live in korea) Koreans to know for a fact.

This is why, among some of my close friends, we have a game to see who can pay the bill first, without anyone knowing.

The surprise comes after the host leaves the paid bill on the table.

It’s gone so far as to put a card on file before arriving with no limit, which leads to folks not picking a place to meet in advance, and a lot less predictable locations to meet :)

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#59

Post by SirArtVandelay »

maininformer wrote: post #46

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to le…

Seinfeld The Pen: Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM Part2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ
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