Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 84 posts

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#41

Post by corty »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #6

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

As a German, I am amused by USians or British claiming to be direct in social interactions. There are books and courses about how the english sentence "we might have to reconsider" means "no". How you would offer sweets twice, because of course the first answer will be "no" and the other party will want to be "convinced" to say "Yes" on the second round. How "a little help needed" means "big catastrophe, need a lot of help right now".

Problem is, you are used to those things and don't see them from inside your culture.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#42

Post by ehsankia »

lqet wrote: post #36

> "Individuals will seek to raise the other person's status, and lower their own". Isn't this the very definition of politeness, anywhere in the world? I read the beginning of the Wikipedia article on Taarof: > In the rules of hospitality, taarof requires a host to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times (usually three times) before t…

Your car anecdote has a big difference, which is that it was a friendly local driving you, not an actual taxi with whom you argued a price before even getting into the car.

The difference with taroof is that it goes beyond simple politeness into something that's sometimes even extreme. This anecdote will sound a bit insane out of context, but my dad would sometimes walk up to the door and lock it when guests wanted to leave, begging them to stay and eat more food.

You are correct that it is indeed rooted in politeness and hospitality, but I think what sets taroof apart is how much further it can go.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#43

Post by EB-Barrington »

I spend around half my life in Iran (for the last eight years).

My favourite example, to show just how pervasive tarof is, was the occassion I was at the supermarket checkout of a large supermarket chain. The young cashier refused, several times, to accept my money. This, at a very western-style large supermarket chain. Of course, I paid. However, a similar thing happened to a Canadian guest I was once travelling with. At a mini-mart, he tried to purchase a bottle of water but the guy at the counter refused his money. The Canadian took the offer at face value, and left.

A few minutes later, a very sheepish guy come down the street asking the Canadian if he wouldn't mind paying. Iranians will understand just how only-in-Iran this situation is.

One thing basically every foreigner who has visited Iran will agree on - tarof or not, Iranians are the warmest, most welcoming people on the planet. The truth is that an Iranian will never understand just how much fun it is being a foreigner in Iran, we really are treated well (tarof or not).

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#44

Post by ed25519FUUU »

corty wrote: post #41
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #6

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

As a German, I am amused by USians or British claiming to be direct in social interactions. There are books and courses about how the english sentence "we might have to reconsider" means "no". How you would offer sweets twice, because of course the first answer will be "no" and the other party will want to be "convinced" to say "Yes" on the second round. How "a little help needed" means "big catastrophe, need a lot o…

I’m 100% in favor of moving towards a more “German” approach to language.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#45

Post by owenversteeg »

eganist wrote: post #16
owenversteeg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to exchange a handful of words with a ton of different people, taarof might make up a noticeable portion of your communication, but in language learning it's far better to speak with fewer people and try to have longer conversations. Otherwise you'll never move p…

> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. 100% taarof - there was another Persian with you, and the custom therefore could absolutely not be disregarded with the solo foreigner. Even if you were alone, the mere potential that you might understand the custom compels its use by your hosts. > For one particular example of Irani…

For the invitations, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The GP comment claimed "It is likely that the vast majority of invitations to people's homes were not sincere, and by taking locals up on their not-actually-intended offers, those foreign travelers are probably causing great inconvenience". Furthermore, the concept of being invited into homes is not something foreign to me, I have Couchsurfed in many countries and hosted many Couchsurfers. I have a decent feel for that sort of thing. There is a very large portion of people who actually do want foreigners to come stay at their home, myself included. Is that so difficult to believe?

As for the sandwiches: well, he also did it for a fellow Iranian, and I am pretty confident that I wasn't misunderstanding the situation: the guy just has a massive heart, and I've seen him do everything he can to help other people.

And as to your opinion about taarof, well, I'll just say that I have met many Iranians that simply regard it harmless, amusing, or an important part of their own culture. Iran is a big country, and just like you can find Americans that hate their own culture's habit of asking "how are you" with no sincerity, there are others that find it important.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#46

Post by maininformer »

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions.

With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to leave, we ask them to stay for dinner and that is a cue that I am about to inconvenience myself and you have to leave, but more often than not, in situations like this, I ended up having a guest over for hours and then overnight lol.

It took me a while to rewire my brain to set the boundaries explicitly, and I have to admit it is still excruciatingly painful for me to reject someone; makes me feel very rude. Nonetheless this approach works great, I dare say a more straightforward culture allows for a better mental state by allowing explicit and clear boundaries for oneself.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#47

Post by NikolaeVarius »

bane wrote: post #12

There's a similar cultural etiquette I've observed amongst Koreans around paying for the bill after eating a meal out together. It sometimes almost erupts into physical violence as several parties all fight for the bill in order to pay it.

Yeah, combine with alcohol, I've seen full on fights erupt over this shit.

I think the younger generation has a bit less issues with these shenanigans, but I don't hang out without enough "real" (aka not raised in the US/live in korea) Koreans to know for a fact.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#48

Post by EB-Barrington »

motoboi wrote: post #17
owenversteeg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to exchange a handful of words with a ton of different people, taarof might make up a noticeable portion of your communication, but in language learning it's far better to speak with fewer people and try to have longer conversations. Otherwise you'll never move p…

> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating This made me wonder what taarof prescribes about translating taarof prescribed offers.

When in Iran, I will often need to, discretely, in English, whisper to a local Iranian friend "is this tarof?".

What hasn't been mentioned so far - even local Iranians are not always 100% certain if a situation is involving tarof or not.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#49

Post by owenversteeg »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #34
owenversteeg wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to exchange a handful of words with a ton of different people, taarof might make up a noticeable portion of your communication, but in language learning it's far better to speak with fewer people and try to have longer conversations. Otherwise you'll never move p…

Tarof isn't an impediment to learning the language, but it is an annoyance that a foreigner would have to constantly deal with if he chose Iran for a place to immerse himself in the language. > Furthermore, taarof is part of the Iranian culture. These little cultural differences are what makes this world beautiful... Even Iranians themselves often don't find tarof beautiful. One might claim that tarof is a "part of I…

Yes, of course there are Iranians on both sides of the issue, but from what I can tell the vast majority of its critics are a handful of young Iranians living outside of Iran. My experience is that Iranians in Iran are favorable towards taarof and big users of it, and Iranians outside of Iran are very pessimistic about it, as they generally are about most things Iran-related.

Re: The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

#50

Post by EB-Barrington »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #6

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is y…

When Americans say "how are you?", think about how often there is no interest whatsoever in the reply, or, how often the reply is not truthful.
Post reply on HN