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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#191

Post by [deleted] »

ric2b wrote: post #184
ohgodplsno wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has 222 active Leclercs, with 260 more in storage. Around 400 AMX variants too. Russia has around 300 known T90s, which are the real threat that matches a Leclerc. The rest are T80s, T72s and older, which, while absolutely dwarfing the french numbers, forgets about a tiny thing: they are absolutely _awful_ tanks compared to modern stuff. A Leclerc will happily shrug off T72s. Additionally, Rafales are more tha…

> forgets about a tiny thing: they are absolutely _awful_ tanks compared to modern stuff. The USSR beat the much better Nazi tanks through sheer numbers, at some point the numbers advantage overcomes the quality advantage.

[deleted]

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#192

Post by lagadu »

goatinaboat wrote: post #125
throwaway4good wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands. Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

It's 2020, you don't need tank to tank when you can simply deploy tactical nuclear warheads against large numbers (strategic too but there's no need for that in this scenario).

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#193

Post by Shacklz »

Ntrails wrote: post #185
hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

I'm not sure precisely when we decided that intelligence gathering wasn't a part of all diplomatic relations? I expect my government to be spying on everyone to some degree or other, friend or foe. I have to assume the same is therefore being done to us. The US simply has more money and more resources allocated to doing so.

That just seems so... wrong.

Why can't we just talk and discuss with each other like normal human beings? Why do we have to result to all this deceiving, tricking, spying each other?

Why can't we just act... nice?

Guess I'm just too naive for this world.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#194

Post by nix23 »

oblio wrote: post #178
nix23 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No please, i don't want a big German directed army again. But something like NATO but just for Europa..that would be a good idea.

Times have changed. A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore. The last times they worried, Germany was 10% of the world economy and growing fast and Europe itself was probably 50% of the world economy (probably more considering all the territories). Now Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down.

>A big German army isn't the thing anyone in 2020 worries anymore.

A really?

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article210474071/Waf...

Would you be happy if DEVGRU/Sealteam6..whatever they call them now, consist of KKK Members?

>Germany is something like 3% and Europe is at 20% and going down.

That 3% cannot be true, Germany is at least 1/3 the European economy, and you know since i live in Europe...i worry about Germany.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#195

Post by fletchowns »

msh wrote: post #95
sbierwagen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, Denmark has a population of 5.8 million. It’s as if Wisconsin had an air force.

But it have the territory almost 23% of the size of the USA to defend (greenland is part of denmark for defence purposes).

Not really a fair comparison when the population density of Greenland barely even registers

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#196

Post by toyg »

saiya-jin wrote: post #156
toyg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark is somewhat more reliant on the US than the average European country because of Greenland. Eastern countries like Poland are similarly beholden to NATO because Russia is an immediate threat for them. Everyone else is basically just lazy: relying on the Americans saves us a lot of money and effort that European public opinion is unwilling to spend. This allows e.g. France to play “Africa’s cop” to prop up thei…

Good point - as an european, I see for example Turkey as much bigger threat currently compared to Russia. They are aggressive as hell, directly (Syria, Greece, semi-open support of ISIS in the region) and indirectly (ie Karabach). Putin will be gone one day, and the idea that somebody more like Erdogan would be leading Russia gives me goosebumps. You don't have to project power to distant places only directly via sup…

Yep. It's not hard to think of a scenario where Bulgaria or Greece get in turmoil because of economic or social woes and Turkish troops advance into their territories to "ensure security" like they did in Syria.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#197

Post by Bayart »

paganel wrote: post #110
cturner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

The problem with an European Army is that the French or the Italians or even the Germans won't send their young men to die at the Eastern border in order to defend Poland or Romania, it's as simple as that (see also the "phoney war" that only ended when Nazi Germany actually decided to invade France and the Benelux). The Americans inspire a little more trust, even though they live half a world away (maybe because of…

>The problem with an European Army is that the French or the Italians or even the Germans won't send their young men to die at the Eastern border in order to defend Poland or Romania, it's as simple as that

What makes you think that ? I often read those sorts of reactions from Eastern Europeans (yes, yes, I know Poland is in « Central Europe ») but that's just giving us intentions we don't have. One other trope is framing the desire for a European Army as a master plan to sell more French weaponry.

Speaking from a French perspective, we'd be completely comfortable sending people fight for the sake of Poland, Romania or any EU member without too much of a second thought. We already send people to Africa all the time.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#198

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #105
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

[deleted]

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#199

Post by jonathanstrange »

elmo2you wrote: post #186
jonathanstrange wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is an irrelevant ad-hominem argument. That's may be okay for Reddit but I'd expect a bit more from someone posting on HN. Besides, that international law was broken by Russia is not my personal opinion, it's backed up by the majority of countries and by almost all scholars in international law, see e.g. [1] for a good analysis. You're just plain wrong in both of your posts. [1] https://www.mpil.de/files/…

You may call it an ad-hominem attack, if you like. However, what I am doing is calling you out .. I honestly don't know if you are a deliberate propaganda mouth piece or just an unfortunate victim of it. Either way, the moment you mentioned international law in relation to this issue, and even had to nerve to declare that the truth of your convictions are factually undeniable, you yourself were the one who pretty muc…

You're again just raising ad-hominem attacks. There is not a single point worth discussing in your last two posts. I'll leave my original reply to you standing as is - Crimea was annexed by Russia in violation of international law, as the paper I've linked to also concludes.

On a side note, there is no respect in your posts at all. On the contrary, after two ad-hominem attacks you even make up a completely new topic of "political correctness" that has nothing to do with anything that has been said so far.

> I honestly don't know if you are a deliberate propaganda mouth piece or just an unfortunate victim of it.

Right... have a good one!

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#200

Post by themihai »

coldtea wrote: post #105
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

>> Russia is not USSR

But it wants the Soviet Union back.

>> and is not a threat to anyone

Ukraine would not agree with that. Russia took Crimea and is supporting a civil war in eastern Ukraine. This may not be much for you but

>> except immediate neighbors

Yeah except the immediate neighbours and then the neighbours of the neighbours. Think of the Soviet Union era...

Speaking of neighbours Denmark, Sweden, Lithuania and few others are pretty close to Russia. I guess they are on your list of doomed neighbours anyway.

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