World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon • Hacker News Board

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#211

Post by totalZero » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #158

totalZero wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every software offering under the sun runs natively on Windows, so it doesn't exactly make sense to give MacOS a pat on the back for that particular achievement with WoW. I am all for innovation and I welcome any chip that runs cooler while offering better performance with the apps I use. But so far, 90% of the praise I've seen of M1 either comes from benchmarking software that doesn't reflect my real world us…

> We don't know much about its performance, aside from a few benchmarks here and there. I don't know what to say to that, except that we must be living in different universes.

I haven't used an M1 device. Frankly, outside of Apple no real-world user (in my universe, can't speak for yours) has long-term experience with it.

Do you always believe everything that a marketing department tells you?

Does all of your real-world experience with consumer products tend to line up with benchmarking software and short-term reviews based on a test drive?

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#212

Post by nightski » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #156

totalZero wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every software offering under the sun runs natively on Windows, so it doesn't exactly make sense to give MacOS a pat on the back for that particular achievement with WoW. I am all for innovation and I welcome any chip that runs cooler while offering better performance with the apps I use. But so far, 90% of the praise I've seen of M1 either comes from benchmarking software that doesn't reflect my real world us…

Eight years after Microsoft's first attempt to move to ARM with Windows RT, you still can't run legacy 64 bit Win32 software on a Surface Pro X. There is absolutely no excuse for that. Just as there was no excuse for the Surface RT not having a touch native version of Office despite them selling it as a tablet, or the Surface Pro X not having ARM native versions of ALL of Microsoft's software. Where's the ARM native…

Are we really sure ARM is where the advantage here is with Apple? Not the 5 nm process?

Let's be real, it's just on par with the Zen 3 in single threaded perf which is on a 7nm+ process. When Zen 4 comes it might be moot.

AMD's entire market cap is practically on par with Apple's cash on hand (so very different companies in terms of size/capability) yet they are equal in performance single threaded? Not only that, in practical terms the AMD chip is very desirable in many situations because it has twice the cores.

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#213

Post by totalZero » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #175

totalZero wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every software offering under the sun runs natively on Windows, so it doesn't exactly make sense to give MacOS a pat on the back for that particular achievement with WoW. I am all for innovation and I welcome any chip that runs cooler while offering better performance with the apps I use. But so far, 90% of the praise I've seen of M1 either comes from benchmarking software that doesn't reflect my real world us…

We don't know much about the performance? Are you living under a rock?

To the contrary, I placed an order for an Intel i7 MBP13 (32GB RAM, 4TB SSD) around the same date as the Apple Silicon presentation took place. I've read every review I can find, seen the benchmarking runs, and -- in light of the fact that my new device won't ship until mid December -- I could still cancel/return my order, buy an M1-powered MBP13, and save some cash.

That is to say, I have skin in the game.

Say what you will about my igneous domicile, but buying a new-to-market processor architecture is not something that I am willing to do just because some guy at The Verge or Tom's Hardware or AnandTech made some bar graphs or felt it necessary to treat hype as fact. I'm not saying they're dishonest or anything, just that the information is thin because the typical user isn't an instance of Geekbench.

My advice to them: Use the device for a couple of weeks, install all of your work software on it, put it through its paces, and then tell me about what you observed. That's the kind of review that would satisfy my curiosity. I do a lot of financial stuff on my machine, and the software (or software-based services) in that world is often proprietary, poorly developed, and/or expensive. Compatibility and performance of those programs are more important to me than battery life while browsing YouTube or render time in Final Cut Pro.

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#214

Post by totalZero » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 6:43 PM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #156

totalZero wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every software offering under the sun runs natively on Windows, so it doesn't exactly make sense to give MacOS a pat on the back for that particular achievement with WoW. I am all for innovation and I welcome any chip that runs cooler while offering better performance with the apps I use. But so far, 90% of the praise I've seen of M1 either comes from benchmarking software that doesn't reflect my real world us…

Eight years after Microsoft's first attempt to move to ARM with Windows RT, you still can't run legacy 64 bit Win32 software on a Surface Pro X. There is absolutely no excuse for that. Just as there was no excuse for the Surface RT not having a touch native version of Office despite them selling it as a tablet, or the Surface Pro X not having ARM native versions of ALL of Microsoft's software. Where's the ARM native…

Fair point. Without moving the goal posts, I should have clarified that I was referring to Windows on x86, and have never owned a Windows ARM device. What I was trying to say is that, if you want compatibility with the broadest swath of software, you don't generally buy a Mac. This is not as true as it used to be, but it's still true.

I don't have a Surface Pro X and would never buy one, but it's an example of how ARM isn't necessarily the answer to the user's problem, because the user may well use his device for more than running Microsoft Office and browsing the internet.

A glimmer of hope from https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/surface-pro-arm-app... on Oct 1, 2020:

With 64-bit emulation coming soon in Preview via the Windows Insider program, you'll be able to run 64-bit (x64) apps on Surface Pro X.

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#215

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #206

ludamad wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While funny, the moral I perceived is "Apple whole-asses everything thanks to vast invested resources", which is unfortunately not as actionable as the Ron quote

Apple was routinely criticized for years for not doing more things. Why don’t they have more models? Why doesn’t their software have infrequently-used features X and Y? Why aren’t there a million levers and dials so I can customize my machine? It’s because they were whole-assing one thing. I haven’t been keeping track, but I think it’s true that the breadth of their product line is bigger or nearly as big as it has e…

[deleted]

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#216

Post by slg » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #207

nardi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about a laptop, and it sounds like you're talking about desktop GPUs, unless you meant GTX 960M.

My point is that a very old discrete GPU is capable of running League at very high settings, and therefore that the new M1 chip's capability to run League well doesn't prove much. In a more relevant benchmark, it looks like the M1 is about 30% better than the GTX 1050 Ti, which was released in Oct 2016. So it's maybe two to three years behind the state of the art in low-power discrete GPUs? I wouldn't be worried abou…

But the M1 chip isn't competing with discrete graphics, at least yet. The M1 is replacing integrated graphics in these machines. Integrated graphics also trail discrete graphics by years so it isn't really a knock on the M1 that it does too.

That leaves two primary questions. Does the integrated graphics of the M1 beat integrated graphics of Intel and AMD? What does Apple plan to do to compete with discrete graphics in their higher end hardware and will that be a more powerful SOC, discrete graphics hardware from Apple, or something more traditional from AMD?

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#217

Post by breakfastduck » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #208

breakfastduck wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worshiping of windows compatibility /continuity (which I do consider to be impressive from an engineering standpoint) is astounding to me. It leads to what we have now - which, to me at least, is a frankly unusable operating system. A hodge-podge of 20 years worth of patterns, menus and systems. Some menus in windows feel they're in a completely different operating system. This is why they should have 'Enterprise…

I consider the wildly mixed UIs not a symptom of compatibility but a symptom of the succession of hopeless attempts to be more than that. The incomplete new GUI generations are surely not caused by compatibility burdens affecting the kernel team.

No but they're a symptom of the 'all work on the same product' situation - if they were split, the people wanting to update the UI etc would work on the new version alongside the kernel team for the new version.

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#218

Post by breakfastduck » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #213

breakfastduck wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know much about the performance? Are you living under a rock?

To the contrary, I placed an order for an Intel i7 MBP13 (32GB RAM, 4TB SSD) around the same date as the Apple Silicon presentation took place. I've read every review I can find, seen the benchmarking runs, and -- in light of the fact that my new device won't ship until mid December -- I could still cancel/return my order, buy an M1-powered MBP13, and save some cash. That is to say, I have skin in the game. Say what…

I take your point there - maybe I was a little short with no reason.

I'm in a similar position, I bought a 16 i9 at basically the same time. Certainly not adopting the first generation of a new processor architecture on a machine I use for work.

However, render time in FCP and number of channels in Logic Pro cannot be understated if they're really this good. It's crazy to see a sudden uplift in what's capable there. A lot of what I've read even indicates that general system use (windows opening /closing, scrolling, system animations) are noticeably faster on the M1.

Plus, I'm happy to take Apples word as they were totally right with the A12z in the iPad Pro. That thing outperforms most windows laptop in creative workflows.

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#219

Post by GeekyBear » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

nightski wrote: post #212

GeekyBear wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eight years after Microsoft's first attempt to move to ARM with Windows RT, you still can't run legacy 64 bit Win32 software on a Surface Pro X. There is absolutely no excuse for that. Just as there was no excuse for the Surface RT not having a touch native version of Office despite them selling it as a tablet, or the Surface Pro X not having ARM native versions of ALL of Microsoft's software. Where's the ARM native…

Are we really sure ARM is where the advantage here is with Apple? Not the 5 nm process? Let's be real, it's just on par with the Zen 3 in single threaded perf which is on a 7nm+ process. When Zen 4 comes it might be moot. AMD's entire market cap is practically on par with Apple's cash on hand (so very different companies in terms of size/capability) yet they are equal in performance single threaded? Not only that, in…

AMD has beat Intel despite being at a process node disadvantage in the past.

We do have an entire shopping list of ways in which Apple's ARM core implementation leads vs. x86 in their five watt iPhone chip.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16226/apple-silicon-m1-a14-de...

Re: World of Warcraft 9.0.2 client runs natively on Apple Silicon

#220

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Nov 18, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #216

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that a very old discrete GPU is capable of running League at very high settings, and therefore that the new M1 chip's capability to run League well doesn't prove much. In a more relevant benchmark, it looks like the M1 is about 30% better than the GTX 1050 Ti, which was released in Oct 2016. So it's maybe two to three years behind the state of the art in low-power discrete GPUs? I wouldn't be worried abou…

But the M1 chip isn't competing with discrete graphics, at least yet. The M1 is replacing integrated graphics in these machines. Integrated graphics also trail discrete graphics by years so it isn't really a knock on the M1 that it does too. That leaves two primary questions. Does the integrated graphics of the M1 beat integrated graphics of Intel and AMD? What does Apple plan to do to compete with discrete graphics…

> But the M1 chip isn't competing with discrete graphics, at least yet.

I understand that. I was responding to a comment that referenced a near future in which the Apple chips would compete with discrete graphics. Observing the distance they have to go is relevant to that speculation.