South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real' • Hacker News Board

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by bigphishy » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

pnw_hazor wrote: post #176

analyte123 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public health authorities in the United States spent 6 weeks pretending the coronavirus didn't exist, then another 6 weeks publicly saying masks didn't work, before saying that you must wear them and if you don't you're stupid and dumb (without really bothering to explain why or ever admitting they had changed their opinion), and then 4 weeks later said that it was OK to shout and march in the streets by the tens…

Also, nonsensical restrictions mixed in with reasonable restrictions in a seemingly ad hoc way have eroded trust in local leadership. Around here, government construction projects were allowed to continue while private ones were halted. Outdoor walks encouraged, but fishing disallowed. And plenty more. Now, indoor dining and gyms are closed again even though they are not contributing to the recent spike. Also, don't…

Fishing was not allowed? Ok now I am curious, what area are you talking about?

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by shaftoe » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

dhruvmittal wrote: post #218

cbfrench wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically, what freedoms are those? Where are they enumerated in the text of the Constitution, its amendments, or the corpus of constitutional jurisprudence? Citing “the freedoms guaranteed by The Constitution” is fairly meaningless in the abstract. There are specific protections and rights afforded by the Constitution that have been defined in the actual constitutional text and whose interpretation has been refin…

The constitution on its own doesn't guarantee any freedoms, so we must look to the Bill of Rights. Does mask wearing fall under: - Freedom of speech? No. - Freedom of the press? No. - Freedom of religion? No. - Freedom of assembly? No. - Right to petition the government? No. - Right to bear arms? No. - Protection against housing soldiers in civilian homes? No. - Protection against unreasonable search and seizure? No.…

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by GregarianChild » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #317

irq11 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, there is no “how it’s done” to point to. All of the east asian countries did radically different things. Taiwan slammed it’s borders shut before cases got into the country, and hasn’t done much else. Korea adopted large-scale contact tracing and isolation interventions. China uses authoritarian rule to lock people up when they have it. Japan hasn’t tested much at all, kept offices and restaurants open…

It seems to me that the one difference that is just stark, between the US and all of those cultures, is that they already had a system wherein it was acceptable (or even encouraged) to wear a face mask. Is it that? Is it that simple? Those are honest questions.

Face masks have been normalcy on public transport in winter in south east Asia for a while, I think, but am not sure, since SARS Cov-1, in 2003.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by sagarm » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

svrb wrote: post #249

irq11 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon’s cases are skyrocketing: https://covid-19.direct/state/OR Much of this is in Portland: https://covid-19.direct/county/OR/Multnomah

I think we can pretty safely conclude that any data saying blue cities have it worse than bumfuck nowhere towns must be misleading or manipulated. It just doesn't line up with what we know about education levels and compliance levels.

Blue cities are denser than outlying red areas. Density means more opportunities for transmission. All else being equal, they would see higher transmission and per-capita infection rates.

The fact that we see the opposite is unfortunate and unnecessary.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by BrianOnHN » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

BrianOnHN wrote: post #220

Tangent, but, since ~2010, I believed HN was the smartest publicly available forum. It made sense that the users here would go on to be leaders at innovative companies. Something changed around 2016 and has accelerated since 2018. Seeing the "COVID denial" comments in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. It's just too bad.

Worse, this entire thread has already been flagged into oblivion, like any other thread that HN apparently "can't handle" anymore,

Sadly, that will ultimately decrease the amount of smarts working on this critical problem.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #244

Animats wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of non-medical masks is not all that great. Bandannas, near zero. N95, quite good.[1] Cloth masks are all over the place depending on material, weave, etc. CDC: "During a pandemic, cloth masks may be the only option available; however, they should be used as a last resort when medical masks and respirators are not available". Ordinary medical masks are easy to get now. N95 masks are still hard to ge…

KN95s are easy to get and probably work a bit better than cloth masks (though probably worse than proper N95s).

> KN95s are easy to get and probably work a bit better than cloth masks (though probably worse than proper N95s).

ISTR recently seeing that 90% of "KN95" masks independently tested do not meet the published requirements for the rating, so, I'd hope that is worse than N95 (the requirements are slightly different, but substantively similar), though still probably better than cloth masks.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by mikelockz » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #305

whalesalad wrote: post #12

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to w…

rather than moralizing angrily ('fucks'), why not try to hone in on what you're worried about exactly? were you really in danger? if you'd have focused more on the lack of distancing indoors, that might have been a legitimate concern. but masks are for show in most places, at most times, and your focus on them indicates a retreat to symbolism rather than effect. the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and an…

> the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread.

The appeal of masks for me is definitely to lower spread. Yes there is signaling, but also because masks reduce amount of possibly covid-infected droplets expelled from the mouth and nose while breathing and speaking.

It is not possible to have a 6 foot bubble around everybody at all times. It is possible to always wear a mask.

This is not moralizing, this is science.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by mike_h » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

zero_deg_kevin wrote: post #230

mike_h wrote: post #157

Covid is turning out to be a disease of culture. The same virus hit the East and the West. The East got through it, the West is on its knees.

I’d call it a disease of experience, first and foremost. The US missed the worst of SARS-Cov1 and MERS, which were catastrophic in some parts of the world. East-Asian Democratic countries had public debates about what are and are not reasonable public health measures. They passed enabling laws, built public health infrastructure, and established cutting edge novel virus surveillance programs. The US did not. We were…

Do you see anything happening in the US public sphere to make you particularly hopeful about how we’ll handle the next one? These people are literally dying on the hill of “covid is a hoax”. Half of the country claims they won’t take a vaccine, and the leadership of half of the country has learned they can gain power by downplaying covid.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by jasonlaramburu » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

Taniwha wrote: post #154

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Australia and New Zealand. Both free and open societies with high per capita GDP. They both have achieved zero community transmission through stringent travel restrictions and a nationwide strategy. It’s disgraceful that we can’t do the same or better in the US.

In both NZ and Australia it took real leadership by government, and a population overwhelmingly willing to listen to them and to follow the science. (In Australia's case it has been leadership by state government over the complete opposite by their federal government)

In the US we have real anti-leadership. Our leaders repeatedly cast doubt on science and common sense in order to reduce their own culpability. They spread the myth that there is ‘nothing we can do’ about COVID until we have a vaccine when other countries have proven this to be false.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

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Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

eddiecalzone wrote: post #185

Claudus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say the basis in the US is freedoms guaranteed by The Constitution, just like the basis for smoking, drinking, using recreational drugs, having an unhealthy diet, riding a motorcycle, not exercising regularly, etc.

The Constitution was ratified before anyone accepted that germs cause disease. Even if it weren't, I doubt they'd have had the foresight to predict the vast number of radicalized buffoons who would demand the "freedom" to needlessly expose fellow citizens to a virus that's killed 250k people.

> The Constitution was ratified before anyone accepted that germs cause disease.

And yet state regulations (even once the Bill of Rights was generally -- though not, I note, explicitly) applied to states via the 14th Amendment requiring people to cover body parts in public to protect some vague combination of public health and public morality have remained in place in all 50 states.

I don't think "cover your nose and mouth in public" mandates (by the states) have any federal constitutional vulnerability as long as "cover your genitals and anus in public" mandates are widely recognized as enforceable.

Federal mandates for mask wearing in public generally would probably have to be conditional mandates on the states and/or have travel/commerce consequences for noncompliance to be secure (mandates on the states with state-level travel/commerce consequences being the most secure), though.