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South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

thehill.com

251–260 of 521 posts

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#251

My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August. We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit. In Vegas the concern for masks started to w…

"So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least."

So only communities like that had issues, the others were fine? If so, why don't people just stick to their mask wearing communities and let other people live as they please?

Except I don't think it is true, many mask wearing communities and countries still have high rates of infections.

I find this really ridiculous, everytime somebody who is critical of the panic catches Covid19, there is the finger pointing and blaming. Meanwhile, most deaths happened in completely different ways, like governors making it spread in nursing homes.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#252
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counti…

Oregon’s cases are skyrocketing: https://covid-19.direct/state/OR Much of this is in Portland: https://covid-19.direct/county/OR/Multnomah

Oregon still seems to be doing relatively better.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_casesper100k...

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the state has the power and push to get people to do it > this is why we need Biden in office You know Biden is running for national office, right? Not state government?

Well, start with this: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/01/politics/mask-mandate-fact-ch...

This article demonstrates that the federal government does not (and should not) have the power to act in this manner. CNN found a single law professor who stated this:

> "I don't think that the statute can be read broadly enough to apply to all people merely moving on an interstate highway," Blackman said. "Once you go beyond people in federal facilities, you're really intruding on what the state's responsible for."

At best, they can cover Federal buildings with a policy. That is it.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#254
post #211
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intention matters less than material consequences. Consider the fact that this last year was the worst for hate crimes for at least a decade. If a whole group of people is propping up a leader who literally and almost exclusively enacts white supremacist policies, and uses white supremacist rhetoric/dogwhistles, what else could you call them?

>a leader who literally and almost exclusively enacts white supremacist policies, and uses white supremacist rhetoric/dogwhistles This is where the rift is. This is not true. Yes, some could take that sort of interpretation of what he's saying, and that sort of interpretation being taken by lots of white supremacists regardless of intention, does mean something. But it doesn't mean much, at least, I don't see why we'…

The people in attendance have the personal responsibility to associate themselves and their actions with movements that reflect their beliefs. "Boo hoo, I didn't know the KKK was racist when I joined" is not a defense that folks will treat with any sympathy. Even if it wasn't their intention, they still messed up, and that onus remains on their head.

Either way you look at it, those "fine people" are not fine -- they propped up white supremacists, culminating in the brazen murder of an innocent, non-violent counter-protestor and the random assault of numerous others. Even if they didn't know, their actions contributed to that, and they are to blame as are the outspoken racists. What you are saying is, "those people had the privilege to join that march and support those sentiments because they are not threatened by what the march explicitly represents." This is an inherently racist mode of interacting with the world, because it opens avenues for racist violence and oppression, and emboldens more outspoken racists to commit atrocities.

Again, intention matters little when lives are at stake. Your argument enables the banality of evil to persist.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To choose not to wear a mask is not like your other examples, because it increases not only the risk to yourself, but to those around you. I don't necessarily think your posts should be getting flagged, but you seem to be arguing in bad faith.

I would say several of those examples actually do increase increase risk to others, second hand smoke, being incapacitated by drugs or alcohol can often put others at risk for a number of reasons, etc. Furthermore, I would think that other behaviors, like having an unhealthy diet or not getting enough exercise put an increased burden on society which is borne by others, even if they are not put at risk.

"I would say several of those examples actually do increase increase risk to others, second hand smoke, being incapacitated by drugs or alcohol can often put others at risk for a number of reasons, etc."

which is why all those things are limited by law. I can't smoke in public spaces, I can't drive drunk, etc.

They are not 'rights' as you seem to argue, and they are limited/regulated just like a million other behaviors. Wearing a mask is no different. Personally, I'd say mask regulations are the equivalent of seatbelt laws - maybe uncomfortable, or inconvenient but basically harmless.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#256
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think they're good and smart, why do they think Covid19 is a hoax? Surely a good person would try to do the safe thing even if they had doubts.

I worked with a guy named Danny many years ago. He was one of the smartest programmers I'd ever met. Not only did he write great code, but he also always maintained an excellent connection to the his customers who would use the programs he wrote. This was in a hospital. Personally, he was kind, generous, excellent family man. He never really talked too much about politics, didn't care too much for it. He also helped…

Sharp comment. Lot of truth packed in there.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#257
post #249
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon’s cases are skyrocketing: https://covid-19.direct/state/OR Much of this is in Portland: https://covid-19.direct/county/OR/Multnomah

I think we can pretty safely conclude that any data saying blue cities have it worse than bumfuck nowhere towns must be misleading or manipulated. It just doesn't line up with what we know about education levels and compliance levels.

There are more total cases in Portland because of the population numbers. From what I recall, the per capita numbers bounce around, with rural counties going through outbreaks occasionally taking the lead. There was a church in La Grande that had a big one in late spring. Sure put the lie to the notion that it was "density" and a "city problem".

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basis most people provide is either an inaccurate or incomplete understanding of the rights given to US citizens by the Constitution of the United States, unfortunately.

And your statement shows you do not understand the constitution, or more specifically the bill of rights. You are not given them, they are recognized as natural rights not government granted rights, and the bill of rights merely recognizes them. If someone doesn’t want to wear a mask that is their choice. Your choice is to avoid situations where you might be in contact with people who don’t wear masks. It’s not to fo…

> You are not given them, they are recognized as natural rights not government granted rights

They are, in fact, government granted whether or not the theory of granting them is that the government was obligated to because of preexisting moral rights, and its quite likely that there was not universal consensus on the underlying theory among everyone involved in drafting, proposing, and ratifying them.

But more importantly, "the right to not be mandated to wear covering over some part of the body to protect either public health or public morality" is not explicitly, or given the history of such mandates and their survival against challenge, on the evidence of legal precedent implicitly a right in the Constitution. You are arguing for a novel right that goes against the well-settled understanding of the rights in the Constitution (whether Amendments 1-10 or otherwise); which is fine, most people would agree things like Loving or Brown were good decisions despite the fact that the rights involved had not previously been recognized in the form those decisions found them. But to argue for such a novel interpretation of Constitutional rights, you need more than vague handwaving at the Constitution in general, you need an argument about how the explicit text in the Constitution supports your novel interpretation.

> If someone doesn’t want to wear a mask that is their choice.

Yes, but it is not a choice that, either morally or Constitutionally, needs to be free of consequences, including restricting the scope of available activities one may engage in.

If someone chooses not to wear covering over their genitals, that's their choice, but its fairly uncontroversial that the law may restrict them from being in public places when they make that choice.

> Your choice is to avoid situations where you might be in contact with people who don’t wear masks. It’s not to force everyone into your beliefs.

I have yet to see a mask mandate that concerns itself with mandate beliefs, only actions in cases where one is exposed to other people (and, invariably in those I've seen, people who live outside of the subject's household.)

> I personally believe in wearing masks, though primarily feel the value in the typical cloth or surgical masks are keeping you from touching your face.

The value of cloth or surgical masks is in reducing the distance (and quantity at any given distance) of droplet spready from exhalation, sneezes, and coughing. They aren't as good as better masks, or social distancing, but the general recommendation (and, in many case, mandate) is for them to be worn in situations where essential activities make the recommended social distancing impossible to maintain/guarantee.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#259
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think they're good and smart, why do they think Covid19 is a hoax? Surely a good person would try to do the safe thing even if they had doubts.

Not the original poster, but I would imagine it echos what I have seen (and believe myself) in that it’s not a hoax as is normally defined, but a mass hysteria fueled by a media that needs clicks to survive. The risks are real for certain demographics, we need to take precautions to help vulnerable people, etc. however the unintended consequences of drastic policies are economic hardship, creating a new generation of…

> the unintended consequences of drastic policies are economic hardship, creating a new generation of homelessness, drug and alcohol addiction, and deaths of despair.

None of these things are inevitable. For example China arguably implemented some extremely drastic policies and they are doing just fine now. New Zealand did the same. In the United States we are just doing an incredibly bad job at this.

Too many people talk about controlling the virus and protecting the economy as if they are polar opposites but the aren't. A month or two of drastic lockdowns early on would have saved the years of slow bleeding we are currently facing.

Re: South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist Covid-19 'not real'

#260
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it. But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me. I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long…

A counter point to consider - and one that I consider to be a little more rational - is that - what if in the messaging to get people to wear masks - we have inadvertantly encouraged riskier behavior? As an analogy, I'd explain it like this. What if in the process to encourage people to wear seatbelts, drivers who did that then felt entitled to drive even faster thus resulting in even worse accidents and more frequen…

This is an interesting argument, and it's hard to say anything without data, which would be hard to measure imo.

As a counter, my intuition is that masks also remind people of the risks and actually encourage safe behavior. I feel this in myself, a greater awareness of the pandemic, a nudge towards being more careful. Extending your analogy, it's as if the seatbelt reminded people that there are some pretty grisly accidents out there, and maybe they should take it easy.

Both effects probably exist, not sure what wins out, and how much it matters.

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