China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea • Hacker News Board

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#51

Post by dirtyid » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:42 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #46

dirtyid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claim…

> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion. The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money…

I don't disagree, I don't know what a sensible contribution system for NATO should be. Only how it's structure right now isn't working for US, and it's probably not going achieve Macron's desire for an European Army fit for EU foreign policy... which remains a meme on the level of India Superpower 2020. EU has all individual components and industrial capability to forge something formidable. But the nature of the Union is an unending coordination problem.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#52

Post by chaostheory » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:45 AM UTC

With continually declining US, its presence to keep the peace is waning. Asia is looking more and more like Europe right before WWI. The main difference is the presence of global ballistic missiles. Hopefully, that will help keep the peace in a post US empire world

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#53

Post by throwaway445 » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:47 AM UTC

platinumrad wrote: post #29

tim333 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's unrealistic about the above? Seems pretty accurate to me.

>The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. This paragraph completely decontextualizes what's going on and makes it sound like the Chinese state is just rolling around blowing up ships for fun. In reality, fishing in internatio…

> In reality, fishing in international waters has always been messy.

If this is all you have in terms of context, it is obvious that you are decontextualising.

> This is just orientalism. Unlike us normal westerners, they don't care about what other people think! How scary!

You could say the same thing about Russia's grabs, there's nothing particularly oriental about that statement.

> This is delusional...

To be honest, you're not making a lot of sense. Editorial standards vary, but there's no conspiracy to make up stories about KJ dying.

> This is just bloodthirsty

I agree, there are other ways to hold China accountable.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#54

Post by zksjejwbs » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:48 AM UTC

hvdfhbj wrote: post #44

zksjejwbs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan cannot be considered a legitimate government either as the premise of their existence is illegal as they've claimed a territory that didn't belong to them and established a country (supported by whose thinks that communist should not exist - remember North/South Korea, North/South Vietnam) The fact that someone elected the government doesn't change anything. People can be manipulated easily, look at who voted…

Taiwan was originally not a country, but it became one when it held elections. Having been elected by the people of the island of Formosa, and with no other legitimate government laying claim to that territory, they became a legitimate government. The fact that the CCP has a group of men with guns occupying China does not make them in any sense a government, it just makes them the world's largest and most murderous c…

I'm sorry you lack of basic knowledge.

Country is not defined by the existence of an election process! Taiwan is not recognized as a county by the UN! While the CCP is recognized as the legitimate government of China

Also China has been claiming control over Taiwan ever since they won the civil war, so is not true what you're saying here that nobody has claimed Taiwan.

> The fact that the CCP has a group of men with guns occupying China

Well.. first they were not a bounce of men with guns they had the support of millions of people in China! And the reason was pretty easy, the old government (that become the Komingtan) sold China to the west and Japan (look for Nanjing puppet state [1]) and they were not happy about it by any means! So yes, they had all the rights to start the revolution to fight a corrupted government.

But even if they were a bounce of random people, the Brits went in Australia with guns and all and claim "this is mine now" and as you can see nobody is complaining about it. Before that they went to the current American continent and claim the land as well with guns and all, guess who won?

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Jingwei_regime

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#55

Post by friendlybus » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:49 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #12

bArray wrote: post #3

The reason they continue to do this is because they know without doubt other Countries will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. There is zero consequences for their actions and they have zero reason to change their policy. You might say "the consequence is that they look bad", but they don't, at least not to the people they care about - mainlanders. They own and/or control the news media in mainland Chin…

>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way. Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claim…

China increasing it's defense budget still hasn't encouraged it's neighbours to acquire what is necessary in a real war, nukes. If a real fight were necessary you would see increases in the MAD equipment.

Military expenditure is just a good excuse to jumpstart a high tech manufacturing economy.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#56

Post by yorwba » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:50 AM UTC

hvdfhbj wrote: post #36

platinumrad wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we" here?

The rest of the world... but since "South China Sea" is an English name I think a consensus among the English-speaking countries would suffice.

A consensus to call it... what? Vietnamese East Sea? West Philippine Sea? North Natuna Sea (Indonesia)? While a consensus to take "China" out of the name seems possible, I don't think there'd ever be a consensus on what to call it instead.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#57

Post by Gupie » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 9:52 AM UTC

hvdfhbj wrote: post #35

zksjejwbs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your knowledge of history is so little that for you Washington is the guy who prints green notes. Jokes aside if the legitimate government are only the elected one lets wipe 2/3 of the world's government lol. Taiwan is a dispute territory because the kuomintang after they lost the civil war in China they moved to Taiwan and claimed the territory. Taiwan was not even a democracy after that but rather a military dictat…

There's only a few dozen remaining completely unelected "governments" in the world, and yes, we should definitely get rid of all of them. Certainly Taiwan never had a legitimate government either until recently but now they do, demonstrating that it can be done. I hope that the CCP can peacefully give up power too, but we should not take any military options off the table.

Does Taiwan becoming a successful democracy mean that China can? Taiwan is a small homogenous island, China, and more clearly Russia for that matter, is an empire. I fear China would fragment probably in bloody civil war if central power were loosened.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#58

Post by DarthGhandi » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 10:09 AM UTC

hvdfhbj wrote: post #17

throwaway69123 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Yes, but legitimate governments such as the be Philippines and Malaysia are also the subject of the CCP's imperial claims.

The Malaysian government is very far from legitimate.

It's run by the party who got dramatically voted out at the last election. Even their supporters call it a "backdoor" government.

The former PM who stole billions and was found guilty of all charges was sentenced to 12 years in prison yet still sits in Parliament while getting friendly media interviews, he gave a speech on the budget just the other day representing all of the backbench.

I always find the South China Sea discussions interesting because I'd love to hear who people actually think deserves ownership of it?

The Philippines is run by a proud mass murdering nutjob, Vietnam is China-lite, Brunei just tried to roll out the death penalty for gay people. Malaysia is steadily gaining more extreme Islamists in power who bizarrely blame the Jews for everything that goes wrong like it's a country run by 4chan.

Who exactly deserves all that oil and fish? It's none of the above in my opinion.

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#59

Post by hvdfhbj » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 11:04 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #56

hvdfhbj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rest of the world... but since "South China Sea" is an English name I think a consensus among the English-speaking countries would suffice.

A consensus to call it... what? Vietnamese East Sea? West Philippine Sea? North Natuna Sea (Indonesia)? While a consensus to take "China" out of the name seems possible, I don't think there'd ever be a consensus on what to call it instead.

How about the Spratly Sea?

Re: China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea

#60

Post by jhanschoo » Tue, Nov 17, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

ddeck wrote: post #43

ainiriand wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many examples of different countries shooting Chinese fishing boats. This is just the first example but you can find many more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3lkM4t8AaA

Certainly, but you'll find that in those cases, the Chinese boats were generally operating illegally in areas internationally recognized to belong to other countries. For example the video you linked is of a Chinese boat operating ~350km off the coast of Argentina, which is nearly the opposite side of the world from China. In contrast, the waters claimed by China in the South China Sea are just off the coast of Vietn…

Oil and gas is only a part of it. You also have at least 1) the desire to monopolize security over the sea lines of communication passing through the SCS, and 2) the huge threat to projecting its maritime power posed by the chain of islands from Japan through the Philippines to Indonesia