The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#231

Post by rixed » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

nikolay wrote: post #213

rixed wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is not that obviously immoral behavior depicted in Disney movies when ugly people misjudge good people for frivolous reasons. Racism is when a group of people consider another group as inferior / less worthy for some reason conflated with their biology or culture (of which most often than not very little is actually known). Racism is exactly the thoughts you have just expressed. Upvoted for your honest contrib…

If Bulgaria and Romania are racist, we beg you, please, take home our gypsies and treat them with respect. They've been integrating into Europe since the 15th century with no measurable success. The Communists tried that hard, too; they gave them free housing, many privileges like they could get into any university without exams. Yet, it would help if you watched documentaries of what they turned those apartment buil…

First of all, I'm not calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists. I'm calling _you_ racist.

Secondly, I've tried my best not to bash you nor your countrymen. And I do not even disagree with many things you have said: indeed, some gypsies consider it fair game to steal from tourists, some have no respect for property, etc. Sure. The same could be said of many other discriminated minorities, and I'm pretty sure we've all heard and read the exact same complains that $Xs are just thieves, cannot be educated, will never give away their long heritage of misbehaviour, etc, etc, where $X is the minority of the day and place.

The discriminated minority varies, but what does not vary is the false generalisation ("all $X are thieves"), the scapegoating ("$Xs are why the economy is bad"), and the reassuring feeling of superiority ("we have been nice to $Xs to no avail yet they were never nice to us"). This is exactly what racism is all about in my views.

Listen, I'm not calling you a bad person for that. I totally understand that when pockets of poverty and antisocial behaviour do exist in one's country then one is upset about it. Just be aware that no minority is inherently bad; minorities have their own dynamic that depends upon many things (on top of which: having to live in a ghetto), but not upon the inner biology/heritage/wtv of any individuals. Do not delude yourself into thinking you would behave any different were you born in the same circumstances, into the same ghetto, etc.

I do not know what have the previous regimes tried to end the discrimination and integrate gypsies, and I'm sad if that has failed. I'm certain though that ghettos are not improving anyone's situation, be it in Bulgaria or in France.

Let's always try to think about the problem practically, to look for solutions/improvements not to look for revenge.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#232

Post by chimen » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #189

chimen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

> The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. So if you don't let them make an honest living, how the hell will they survive?? You claim they're all thieves and they don't want to be integrated, so you deny them any job prospects. And then you turn around and wonder why they steal!! How else will they feed their families or afford the basic necessities, man? I'm not saying they're all…

I hired three of them to build me a fence last year - following an online ad that they had, we talked on the phone and settled for the next day. Good for me that I have cameras in my yard because they jumped me to pay double at the end of the job quoting some bs numbers that we didn't discuss. 4 of them getting in my face at night. I already knew how it is going to go down from the moment I saw that the car of workers is made entirely of gypsies so I had someone recording and ready to call the cops. Nice tango there. I hope you don't get to dance it. As I said, it's easy to speak from the side when you don't know the situation - everyone seems to have an opinion but completely disregards what an entire nation thinks.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#233

Post by shadowprofile77 » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

EB-Barrington wrote: post #128

shadowprofile77 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but were you frequently asked why you were taking photos? In your case, what explanation would you give? Wonderful shots by the way, and thank you for your reply.

Thanks for the compliment! Yes, I was asked several times that day what I was doing. My explanation was "I'm just taking photos". Lame, but it works if you show a little smile.

Exactly what I've done so many times! Good to know it works just fine in other contexts.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#234

Post by jrochkind1 » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

earthboundkid wrote: post #143

wussboy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary I think both scientific evidence and theory point strongly to the fact that all humans are racist. In group/out group is baked in to our genes. None of that makes it right, of course. But pretending we are not all prone to racism is not useful

“Racism” is the wrong word for it because “race” is a modern concept. Certainly prejudice and xenophobia are natural and pervasive human qualities, but “race” per se doesn’t exist before 1492, so there was no “racism” just lots of particular prejudices (anti-Semitism and anti-Samaritanism, for example).

This is a really important point.

On the larger point, it's possible xenophobia is "natural", but I think it pays to be very cautious about what is "natural" or not among humans, what even that means. So so much is our social context. We can look at what social contexts (re)produce xenophobia and which don't without even having to decide what is "natural" though.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#235

Post by SirLotsaLocks » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

EB-Barrington wrote: post #226

chimen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

Saying they "they steal or avoid work whenever possible" is that demonstrably a (racist) lie? When so many people have the "belief" that Gypsy/Roma steal because that's just what they do, it's nice to see in reality this is simply not true. Counterpoint provided by EVN, the Austrian electrical company who provides services to Stolipinovo: "As a result of the project, the average monthly payment rate for (Stolipinovo)…

also I feel that its worth noting that "avoiding work whenever possible" isn't something you can ascribe to just one group of people. Most people don't love working, which makes it easy to pin it on a specific type of people but you can see it in really anyone. And it can be caused by a lot of external factors, being tired because you don't go home to a place you can feel safe and rest, being consistently shit on because of your culture, not having a great upbringing, being sick, and sometimes some people just cant set their minds to a task the same as others. Things like this can be helped by having a stable job and being treated the same as other people around you.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#236

Post by SirLotsaLocks » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

chimen wrote: post #230

mariusor wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are talking about a community of people that appears in Europe in the 9th century and they keep their cultural identity ever since Well, let's not forget that gypsies have been slaves for most of their existence in Romania and it's been less than 200 years since slavery has been abolished and they've been freed. Most Romanians conveniently forget this part when justifying their racism.

You make 0 sense stop babling with your slavery "Wikipedia" quotes. Life is not Wikipedia - we don't have slaves here. We're in 2020 nobody here cares about what happened 100 years ago more than for historic reference. We also slaved for the Ottomans during the same periods that you're quoting but you don't see me going into their country to do what they do here, in Austria, Spain, Italy or somewhere else. Leave Wiki…

> We're in 2020 nobody here cares about what happened 100 years ago

correction: you don't care about what happened 100 years ago. You don't care because it doesn't affect you. 100 years ago isn't very long ago at all, and the economic consequences can still effect people. The difference for people who's grandparents or great grandparents were able to work normally and provide for their children and the people who's grandparents or great grandparents who were slaves.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#237

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 3:54 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #145

nickpp wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived…

The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#238

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #216

pmoriarty wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian…

Do you know anything about Romas and their culture, do you know any Roma person? Because your comment talks about Asians, Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Indians and others but not about Gypsys at all. "Lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers" - are you serious?! What world do you live in? And please check yourself with that racial hate on gypsy culture. Their culture is dark, mysterious, romantic, nomadic, wonderful and bea…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#239

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #167

nickpp wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived…

Read the above comment about how locals would refuse to patronize a restaurant staffed by a Romani worker. If you're living in an environment where people go out of their way to make sure you don't have any economic opportunity no matter what you do, what the hell is the point of preparing your children for a workforce that is guaranteed to reject them? To try and gain respectability among people who are steadfastly…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#240

Post by kazinator » Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

I'm not a local, but wouldn't eat at a restaurant if it was staffed by people from that specific neighborhood documented in the submitted web page. That's regardless of their ethnic background: they could be milk-white Bulgarians.

I would expect them to show up in dirty clothes, and not having bathed in months, and neglect to follow basic hygiene like washing their hands. They would likely perpetrate actions like tasting food and putting the same utensil back into the pot, completely lacking the inhibition of refraining from doing whatever comes naturally.