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The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

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Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#211

Post by fierarul »

monocasa wrote: post #208
fierarul wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. They've literally been genocided with few Europeans actually caring at the end of the day (the holocaust killed almost a third of them). They're arguably treated worse than blacks in America. The way Roma are and have been treated is pretty much definition barbaric.

Was there some war going on when you had legalized racial segregation? Some foreign troops on US soil I don't know about?

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#212

Post by [deleted] »

chimen wrote: post #185
EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#213

Post by nikolay »

rixed wrote: post #206
chimen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

Racism is not that obviously immoral behavior depicted in Disney movies when ugly people misjudge good people for frivolous reasons. Racism is when a group of people consider another group as inferior / less worthy for some reason conflated with their biology or culture (of which most often than not very little is actually known). Racism is exactly the thoughts you have just expressed. Upvoted for your honest contrib…

If Bulgaria and Romania are racist, we beg you, please, take home our gypsies and treat them with respect. They've been integrating into Europe since the 15th century with no measurable success. The Communists tried that hard, too; they gave them free housing, many privileges like they could get into any university without exams. Yet, it would help if you watched documentaries of what they turned those apartment buildings into - the whole complex had to be destroyed as it was inhabitable.

Again and again, a "gypsy" is not a matter of race or ethnicity as there are many well-integrated gypsies who distance themselves from the other gypsies, nobody calls them or considers them to be gypsies - being a gypsy is a matter of social irresponsibility, not following any laws, and having crime (mostly theft) as heritage.

If you look into recent genetic studies, gypsies are descendants from the untouchables caste in India. The same thing they do in Bulgaria and Romania, they've been doing in India, and that's why they were persecuted and moved from Asia to Europe. They were not a different race back in India!

The problem is this "heritage." Not all heritage should be cherished and preserved. As an extreme example, I will give you cannibalism.

Gypsies teach their kids to pickpocket at an early age. It's not considered immoral. In fact, in gypsy culture, theft is only when you take away gold or silver. It's not only a way to make a living for them, but they also consider it an intellectual challenge - how to outsmart people.

Another gypsy heritage is the bride marketplace. Women in the 21st century are sold like cattle. There are tons of documentaries on the subject. Should this heritage be preserved and celebrated, too?

So, let's stop calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists! We're not. It's been 500 years already, and gypsies have killed more Bulgarians and Romanians than Bulgarians and Romanians have killed gypsies. Yes, often older people in the villages are getting tortured and killed over 5 euros.

I can speak about Bulgaria, which has been a multicultural country way before many new Western democracies. We've welcomed thousands and thousands of Armenian refugees; we live in peace with Bulgarian Turks. We have many Jews - we saved all our Jews during WWII even if we were allies of Germany. We have Russians, Greek, Italians, Macedonians, and Serbians living in Bulgaria. During Communism, many Libyans, Lebanese, and Syrians came to study in Bulgaria, get married and stayed. I can't recall any racism and ethnicism against any of them - there's a different attitude only toward gypsies!

Regarding the pocket-picking - I had a currency exchange business on the main street, and I've witnessed in the past many gypsy troupes "working" tourists. Of course, they wouldn't try to pickpocket from Bulgarians as when they see a gypsy, everybody grabs their bags and protects their belongings. With Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU, these troupes are now all over Europe. Back to when I had that business - often gypsies were coming to me offering me 20% of what they steal if I let them "work" in the store!

And, please, let's not victimize them and point fingers at Bulgarians and Romanians - they are victims but of their own "cultural" heritage! The change can only change if kids are not allowed to be "trained" into being a "gypsy" (the social behavior) by their parents! I don't get why "racist heritage" could be bashed, but "theft heritage" cannot be!

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#214

Post by _hao »

As a Bulgarian I have a couple of interesting stories surrounding gypsies. Some more pleasant than others, but I'll try to be short.

My grandparents built a house near the Black Sea when I was a child and in spring and summer they've always hired a gypsy family from the nearby town to help us in the garden. They were hard workers and my grandparents treated them fairly and paid them fairly. Besides getting paid for their work we also gifted them some unused TV's, radios, bicycles and some other stuff throughout the years. The family head and his wife were on the older side and both had finished high school (under communism). Their 5 or 6 children however have not... They had finished only the mandatory 8 years at school and dropped out afterwards. They were really upset about the fact, but they couldn't control their children it seems. Other people from their gypsy community didn't really support them it looks like and it seemed easier to work in sanitation or other jobs where education was not important. Their daughter got married off to someone and soon grandchildren came into the picture as well. Their sons also moved away. I haven't seen them in many years now. Hope they're well. I've always respected them as people, but most of them are not like that family. They don't want to be integrated.

I've been in a couple of street fights throughout the years (never the instigator). One of them was with a gypsy who wanted to steal my watch. I was in high school at the time and by this point training in MA for 4-5 years. I was going home from school and it was dark because most high schools in Bulgaria divide the semesters in two timetables morning and afternoon (7:30-13:30, 13:00 - 19:15 the times also depend how many subjects you have that day). It was the first semester for me during autumn/winter and it was the afternoon timetable 13:00 to 19:15. So it was after 19 and it was already dark outside. I was walking on the sidewalk and there weren't a lot of cars passing by. I saw a person walking against me in the distance but didn't think any of it until he got closer and I saw he was a gypsy. The moment I saw his complexion I was on high alert. This is an instinct that most Bulgarians will understand in this situation. Alone, it's dark and there's a gypsy in front of you. We walk closer and closer to each other and I see that he looked at my watch. He stops me and asks me for some change and I say I don't have anything. The actual combat situation played out very fast. He very quickly grabbed my left hand. I instinctively punched with my right hand straight to his face and caught him on the chin, he wobbled back and let go of my left hand then I kicked somewhere around his waist groin area and he crumbled down. After that I started running and ran all the way home. He didn't try to follow me. By that point he probably thought it was more trouble than worth or was afraid of being caught. I don't know. Another friend years later was in a similar situation, they wanted his watch. My friend lost the watch and got a broken tooth in the ordeal :/

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#215

Post by nickpp »

chefandy wrote: post #167
nickpp wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived…

Read the above comment about how locals would refuse to patronize a restaurant staffed by a Romani worker. If you're living in an environment where people go out of their way to make sure you don't have any economic opportunity no matter what you do, what the hell is the point of preparing your children for a workforce that is guaranteed to reject them? To try and gain respectability among people who are steadfastly…

That comment is simply false. Nobody cares where the restaurant workers are coming from. They do care if they respect hygienic standards so cleanliness and integration do matter - race does not.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#216

Post by nickpp »

pmoriarty wrote: post #145
nickpp wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived…

The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian…

Do you know anything about Romas and their culture, do you know any Roma person? Because your comment talks about Asians, Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Indians and others but not about Gypsys at all.

"Lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers" - are you serious?! What world do you live in?

And please check yourself with that racial hate on gypsy culture. Their culture is dark, mysterious, romantic, nomadic, wonderful and beautiful in its own way. It has different values from your culture (and mine) and leads to different outcomes but you shouldn't hate it.

Get yourself involved with a community or organization working with Gypsy people and maybe you'll start to understand them better instead of summarily judge them and those who know them.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#217

Post by mariusor »

bluepoint wrote: post #199
chimen wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the public found out a Gypsy was working in the kitchen, most people would never dine at that restaurant" - I don't dig that, it's a lie. I live just two hundred miles north in Romania and we have our own communities here - bigger even. The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. They either steal or avoid work whenever possible. Most criminal gangs are by gypsies and most stealin…

Thanks for saying what needs to be said. My impression as well is that they just mind their own business and they do not want to be integrated, but merely prefer to coexist in a parasitic form and tied to their own community more than anything else. They have their own culture and traditions which they vigorously isolate from whatever place they live in. Framing the issue as just racism and discrimination does not ca…

> We are talking about a community of people that appears in Europe in the 9th century and they keep their cultural identity ever since

Well, let's not forget that gypsies have been slaves for most of their existence in Romania and it's been less than 200 years since slavery has been abolished and they've been freed. Most Romanians conveniently forget this part when justifying their racism.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#218

Post by mariusor »

fierarul wrote: post #192
1024core wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they don't get hired is because it is always a gamble doing that. So if you don't let them make an honest living, how the hell will they survive?? You claim they're all thieves and they don't want to be integrated, so you deny them any job prospects. And then you turn around and wonder why they steal!! How else will they feed their families or afford the basic necessities, man? I'm not saying they're all…

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians.

According to Wikipedia[1] (as I have no other sources at hand) gypsies have been slaves in Romania for most of the period since the Romanian Principalities' inception in the 13th, 14th century until 1864. I think 400+ years of indentured servitude and slavery paints Romania as quite barbaric. You should probably reconsider your biases.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#219

Post by dragonwriter »

1024core wrote: post #201
fierarul wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. They have all the legal right as any citizen to own propert, start companies, hire others, etc. Further more there a lot of positive discrimination by guaranteeing them seats in Universities, etc.

> There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that. At least in America now there are laws specifically disallowing discrimination against blacks and minorities. But it appears in Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe there is still widespread discrimination against the Roma. Looks pretty barbaric to me!

> > There's no comparison to how blacks were treated in America, we are not barbarians. There's no colored bathrooms and stuff like that.

> At least in America now there are laws specifically disallowing discrimination against blacks and minorities. But it appears in Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe there is still widespread discrimination against the Roma. Looks pretty barbaric to me!

You are comparing laws on the books on one place with practice in another.

There is widespread discrimination against blacks in the US, despite the existence of laws prohibiting it. To the point that white supremacists have expressed confidence that local police throughout the country will stand aside for them to commit murder against blacks and/or people seeking accountability for crimes against blacks without any need for direct coordination or specific inside coconspirators, and those sentiments have been validated.

Plus, GP didn't offer a comparison to current treatment of blacks in America, but basically to treatment before the mid-20th century civil rights movement, when there were not such laws. When someone does that to reject that their treatment of someone else is barbaric, you don't need to shift the ground and try to do an apples to oranges comparison to something else, you can just say that the bar they have set is too low to reject the characterization of barbarism even if taken as true.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#220

Post by mariusor »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #59
mrtksn wrote: post #11

In Bulgaria, Gypsies are viewed as a huge problem and people are often openly racist against them, even on national TV. The stereotype is that the gypsies will steal whatever they can, trash and start fights and many other things. My grandma would hide her stuff if sees a gypsy, on the other hand there's a subset that she would adore. The subset, according to her, are the "tradesmen" gypsies and she would often buy s…

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One cannot defend the exploitation of the poor, young kids, the disabled, the old, sent to western Europe and forced into begging, stealing or mugging locals and excuse that with "cultural relativism". These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children…

> but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe

There are a plethora of criminal gangs that belong to other ethnicities and nationalities in Europe. Painting the whole ethnicity/nationality with the same brush is the textbook definition of racism even though we like to hide it behind "not all Roma are like this".

> These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children to school even in places where school is mandatory under 15 thus perpetuate the cycle of illiteracy. Is this what educated people here are defending? really? This kids aren't even given a chance to succeed.

Yes. Gypsies are very insular and keep their culture, but I feel like that is too convenient of an explanation that people are using. In my opinion governments should make a better attempt at integrating them into the education system. Literacy is key into helping them overcome the gadjo vs roma mentality and I don't think that people and communities do enough to overcome this problem.

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