Live data from Hacker News

The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

yomadic.com

151–160 of 258 posts

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#151
As a Spaniard, I am very aware of this issue. There are way too many people in this thread just labeling southern and east europeans as racist, as if this explained everything. I also find that comparing this to the racial problems in the US is off the mark.

There are millions of spaniards who really support government programs to integrate our large gypsee population (no one here, including the gitanos themselves, call them Roma; their dialect is known as romaní, though).

There are also millions of Spaniards who have written them off as a hopeless basket case.

Both groups have a point.

As many people here have pointed out, many gypsees have integrated in mainstream society, and in many cases one would struggle to identify them as such. These have no trouble working in restaurants, or getting any other job for that matter.

But gypsees have a very proud culture, and those who behave like payos (which is how they call non-gypsees) get mocked, and all but banished by their own kin. This is compounded by the sad fact that it is undeniable that those that do cross over would do better if they hide their origins from the mainstream. And this culture is radically different, not only from mainsteam spanish culture, but western culture in general.

The main issue with traditional gypsee culture, and the biggest hurdle for integration, is school education. The spanish state has spent millions over many decades on this, with mixed success.

What follows is just an anecdote, albeit not an isolated one, that I belive highlights the challenges. My mum has a very close friend who is a school teacher. Several years ago this friend, an idealist, volunteered to teach at an area with a very large gypsee population. The first and largest problem was to get the gypsee families to send their kids to school to begin with. The best they managed was to get them to cram a bunch of kids in a taxi, which the teachers, who in Spain are not well paid, would pay out of their own pockets. The kids, 5 year olds, swore like drunken sailors. Good luck teaching manners. Their dads would leave porn running on the tv, to which the kids would be exposed from an early age, and candidly told the teachers. They would also tell how daddy beat mummy regularly, because this gypsee culture is very macho. One boy said his dad was very good. He would pretend to beat his mum, who would scream, so that neighbours would know everything was alright in the family. My mums friend couldn't stand all this after a year and begged for a transfer. When they were relocated by the government from the shanty to new appartments, they yanked out all the fittings and furniture, and sold it all for scrap.

Me, I was instinctively terrified of them as a kid growing up in Spain. You saw gypsees, you ran. We have all been mugged and bullied by them. As you grow up, you become aware of the social problems, and also end up talking to some, and yes, many are very nice and friendly. But you also hear from them how their own environment makes it very hard to, say, take their education seriously.

My point is, it is too easy to slap the racist adjective without making an effort to understand. There is racism for sure, but there is also enormous cultural resistance from the gypsees, which makes many to abandon hope, on both sides.

My main gripe when it comes to comparing this to the racial problem in US is that no one brought the gypsees to Europe, they came of their own accord, and nowhere were they enslaved, AFAIK, at least not at scale, maybe only by the nazis.

They still keep coming to Spain, mostly from Romania. And, guess what? The spanish gypsees hate the romanian gypsees. In Spain, the gypsee women often beg. One day, sitting at a terrace, my mum gave one a coin, as she often does. The woman warned my mum, bitterly complaining about the romanian gypsee women. "We just beg, they will steal your handbag".

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated cultu…

It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn…

[deleted]

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#153
post #47

Might be worth pointing out that those apartment buildings are everywhere in the ex-communist block. In various states of (dis)repair. I think they were called "comfort III" (with I being the best). They're as bad as they look even when maintained.

The word you're looking for is "bloc". They're apartment blocks in the ex-communist bloc.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#154
post #2

I have quite a few European friends on social media and they always seem perplexed whenever racial tensions flare up in the USA. Some even have openly asked "why do Americans find it so hard not to be racist? It's not that hard." I always respond by pointing out that the citizens of almost every country are naturally xenophobic and/or racist, just not necessarily against people of African descent. In the case of Euro…

A fellow American friend of mine visited Europe with his child's soccer team about 4 years ago. During a match in Spain, people were yelling racist obscenities at one of the 12 year old American soccer players who is black. I was pretty surprised, having believed Europe was more enlightened than the US. Was that just a fluke occurrence? Is that something common at children's soccer games?

> I was pretty surprised, having believed Europe was more enlightened than the US.

As rule of thumb the bigger the distance from the Blue Banana the less enlightenment you encounter. Especially in the eastern and southern direction.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#156
post #81
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Roma and the other gypsy peoples I thought gypsy was the exonym for the Roma(ni) people. Are there other "gypsy" peoples?

My "shallow" understanding is that "gypsy" seemed to be related to "egyptian", because of their looks. Others point to 13th-14th century ottoman invasion bringing troops from South Asia that were forced to move out from there, and used them as supporting troops later settling in Europe. Hell if I know. I'm bulgarian, and you can imagine how this was portrayed to me, by parents, school, friends, etc. This article actu…

Yes, the word "gypsy" comes from "Egypt". It's not immediately obvious why the term was applied to the gypsies.

We know with certainty that the gypsies came from India, though we don't know the details.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#157
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average : most people survive on less than that, some even on half t…

A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?

Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled).

Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#158
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is similar for a lot of Asian populations as well. I think it is mostly just due to how much exposure you have had to the various populations where you can notice the small differences that tend to make a group distinct. Most Americans do not interact with enough European sub-groups to distinguish between them, while most Europeans I have run into tend to lump east Asians into a single group while I can easily dis…

Yes, exactly. I can usually distinguish between Japanese/Chinese/Korean just by realizing there are differences and noticing, but most other people just think "Asian" (or, even worse in my country, "Chinese").

> I can usually distinguish between Japanese/Chinese/Korean just by realizing there are differences and noticing, but most other people just think "Asian" (or, even worse in my country, "Chinese").

Compare the advice a Chinese teacher in Shanghai gave my class when someone asked about telling whether someone was Japanese or Chinese: "It's easy. Japanese people wear much nicer clothes."

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#159

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clot…

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated cultu…

Seems like culture and poverty are one and the same, in this case.

If you are poor then maybe you will behave like that, but if you behave like that then you will certainly be poor.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated cultu…

It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn…

Exactly. I've heard this same type of criticism about Native Americans. "their towns are filthy, you will get robbed, (they aren't proper people, and being friends with them lowers your social status)".

Having experienced them, US reservations are definitely shitty places, but everything the OP said applies. Yes, they look like 3rd world counties, and passers-by attribute that to the people living there. Rather, the real reason these places look terrible is poverty and lack of investment.

I had the misfortune last year of having to attend a funeral on a reservation (misfortune in the sense that my friend died), and there was a stark line between the ranchland surrounding the res and the res itself.

I can't speak to Europe, but even in NA it really isn't about color of skin. I'm of French Mediterranean background, so during the summer I'm browner than most of my Hispanic friends. Doesn't matter, I 'pass' as a white person, while my Hispanic friend who is whiter than me gets treated like a second class citizen. It's fucked, but in America I don't actually think it's about race, americans just hide classism behind race since racism is more acceptable than classism.

Edit: not to say that reservations are unequalled places of filth. In my experience, even if you aren't native people are willing to help out. I was cross-country traveling on a garbage old Harley that needed help every 75 miles, and I had the most generous offers when I was in Native country vs. anything else. This agrees with the OP, in these places people are more willing to help out. For example, in a reservation town in SW SD my magneto died. I struggled with kicking the bike for 10 minutes, somebody eventually saw I was struggling and offered to call their cousin with a truck. Towing the bike behind a truck got it to fire, and everyone involved refused money (common response was "you'll need it later"). I get I was driving an absolute crap piece of machinery, but the reservation towns were much more helpful than other towns that I broke down in over that trip (and I broke down in a lot, I was driving a 71 harley sportster, they weren't even reliable when new).

Post reply on HN