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The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

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Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#101

Post by titanomachy »

kostarelo wrote: post #94

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clot…

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options.

In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated culture. Even Greece has 100k Romani, and most of them are not living on the streets.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#102

Post by pmoriarty »

kostarelo wrote: post #94

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clot…

"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets.."

Riiiight. It must be their culture?

You think that if you give them clean clothes they'll throw them away?

You think they prefer a meal picked out of a garbage can to one from a restaurant or grocery store?

Or that they'd rather have their kids go without shoes or clothes?

"I've seen all those things and they aren't pretty."

You might have seen them, but you did not understand them.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#103

Post by abraxas »

umvi wrote: post #2

I have quite a few European friends on social media and they always seem perplexed whenever racial tensions flare up in the USA. Some even have openly asked "why do Americans find it so hard not to be racist? It's not that hard." I always respond by pointing out that the citizens of almost every country are naturally xenophobic and/or racist, just not necessarily against people of African descent. In the case of Euro…

Ask all those smug Europeans how they treat their Roma or even the Eastern European expats.

Brexit was one big middle finger to the Polish diaspora.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#104

Post by ardit33 »

maest wrote: post #86
marton78 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that many Europeans are racist towards Roma and the other gypsy peoples. Much of what they say will be pure nonsense (e.g., they are stupid, not fit for work, etc), but other common statements you might hear also have some truth to them. For example, "they all steal" is of course a gross simplification, as many Roma are well integrated and live a regular life. However, if you are surrounded by a group of peop…

> a bit racist It's more than a bit. It's institutionalised and pervasive racism. One big difference from the US is that Eastern-Europeans don't even acknowledge there is any racism against gypsies so it's not even part of the public discourse. Much like how fish don't realise they're surrounded by water, so do Eastern Europeans not acknowledge that they live in a racist society. The tensions flaring up in the US are…

Let's be honest, 90% of E. European were oppressed/repressed themselves. Unless you were in the 5% communist party elite, your life under communism was full of oppression everywhere.

'Race Relation' are a luxury of wealthier western countries. When you are struggling for food/heat/shelter yourself, it is hard to worry about other's problems.

I think it will take at least one more generation for things to slowly change.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#105

Post by quibbler »

pmoriarty wrote: post #102
kostarelo wrote: post #94

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clot…

"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets.." Riiiight. It must be their culture? You think that if you give them clean clothes they'll throw them away? You think they prefer a meal picked out of a garbage can to one from a restaura…

It definitely is the culture of some of them. I'm in a country with social security, but there are groups of them in organized begging (also stealing by word of shop owners, but that is less visible to non-shop owners)'. I wouldn't claim "they" are all like that, but unfortunately the beggars are the most visible group. The organized begging definitely is a kind of culture that family members grow into.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#106

Post by krastanov »

pmoriarty wrote: post #22
umvi wrote: post #2

I have quite a few European friends on social media and they always seem perplexed whenever racial tensions flare up in the USA. Some even have openly asked "why do Americans find it so hard not to be racist? It's not that hard." I always respond by pointing out that the citizens of almost every country are naturally xenophobic and/or racist, just not necessarily against people of African descent. In the case of Euro…

[flagged]

I had a negative knee-jerk reaction to your comment and I will attempt to explain myself here. I am not claiming this is how you meant your comment: What you wrote really reminds me of the "we should be colorblind and that will fix American racism" argument. However implicit biases are a thing and past damage does not get fixed by simply being colorblind (rather it festers). Similarly, your comment sounds like "just do not be racist" is a trivial thing to do, while usually subscribing to that view just makes you more susceptible to your own biases that you are unaware of. Very active thought is required to avoid in-tribe knee-jerk behavior. Maybe it is easy for you, but then I claim you are underestimating how difficult it is for others, even when they are well-meaning.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#107

Post by justnotworthit »

EB-Barrington wrote: post #16

Post author here. Stolipinovo is one of several European Roma communities that I have visited over the years (several times now), and it's the largest that I'm aware of. The photos in the post are representative and true of how the area actually is, and I'm happy to answer any questions (forewarning, I'm not an expert). If I were to emphasize any one take-away - it's the friendliness I experienced from the locals. So…

You wrestled with a screaming guy trying to rip the camera out of your hands.

A common travel cliche is "99% of people are friendly to you". That's a good thing, but I want to know what the 1% and 0.1% are likely do to you.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#108

Post by petre »

vicpara wrote: post #55

It's so easy to speak of something one has only a superficial understanding of. If one really wants to get a better understanding go and try to live like a normal person in the vicinity of their community. Pose as a foreigner or journalist and they'll tell you how much they have to endure. Pose as a neighbour minding your own business and you'll see what happens :)) I guess this will be an amazing article. The gypsie…

Integration does work but not when you segregate a minority into ghettos. The Germans learned this and they stopped segregating refugees. Everywhere else the refugees end up in a 'camp'.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#109

Post by p2detar »

maest wrote: post #95
throw_m239339 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One cannot defend the exploitation of the poor, young kids, the disabled, the old, sent to western Europe and forced into begging, stealing or mugging locals and excuse that with "cultural relativism". These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children…

> But criminal Roma networks are a reality nobody can deny. True, but that doesn't mean there is no racism. If anything, this would support the fact that racism exists, since conflict tends to make people think in terms of in-group/out-group. A follow-up question is whether the racism is justified. An even more important question is whether the conlfict stems from a failure to integrate different cultures and whether…

Actually, I think his comment was a spot on:

> They have a tight sense of community and most of them never assimilate wherever they go and barely make effort to speak the local language.

This has been my impression as well. The Roma seem to first identify themselves as part of their community and only then, part of the common folk in the country they reside in. Many also follow some internal social group laws that are often totally illegal, e.g., bride market.

To answer your question, I believe there’s a strong mismatch in culture and I do not see a way to solve this problem with any possible social or state actions.

The problem, as it seems, will solve itself in the long term as the Roma population has a greater positive net increase compared to the non-Roma population in Eastern Europe. It seems in some decades from now, Eastern Europe will mostly be Roma populated. Is that good or bad, I honestly don’t know.

Some interesting figures reported by Reuters - https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/.... The year is 2009 but to me it seems valid for 2020, though population numbers may have doubled since then.

Re: The Largest Gypsy Ghetto in Europe – Stolipinovo, Bulgaria (2016)

#110

Post by xyzzyz »

glitcher wrote: post #100
kostarelo wrote: post #94

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clot…

> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opportunity, not further isolation.

There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average: most people survive on less than that, some even on half that.

However, crime in Ukraine is lower than in US, and it’s significantly lower than in US cities. While its infrastructure’s state reflects the income levels, it’s not atrocious, and it’s certainly better than what US would end up with if it was only spending figures comparable to Ukraine. Certainly, you don’t have rotting garbage piling up everywhere on the sides of the street, like in the OP photos.

It’s not poverty that results in what happens in Gypsy ghettos. It’s the culture.

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