They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#221

Post by alavesto » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #162

amirkdv wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

To elaborate on aazaa's comment: think of the labels "patriot" and "terrorist" and think of how frequently they correlate with "winner" and "loser". The Founding Fathers were patriots, because America is now the dominant world superpower. But there are a number of groups that attempted to do to America exactly what America did to the British. Daniel Shay, Tecumseh, Sitting Bull, the entire Confederacy, the Anarchist…

This isn't to be taken as a show of support at all, but I had similar thoughts when the story of the kidnapping plot against Michigan gov Gretchen Whitmer broke. The militia had been heavily encouraged by multiple undercover FBI agents-provocateur who themselves were integral in engineering the plot - and it's really unclear whether the militia would have even considering doing such a thing without these agents egging them on and offering to provide explosives.

If the British Empire had the technology and infrastructure of today's intelligence agencies, the founding fathers would have been arrested as terrorists before they could get 10 people in a room together. There would have been some undercover agent of the Crown showing up to meetings trying to convince George Washington that they needed to go kill the king - and history would remember them all as nothing more than evil terrorists justly apprehended for plotting violence against the state.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#222

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #84

_iyig wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

How quickly people who don't live in Seattle shout nonsense about the CHAZ. Let's break down what actually happened. 1. After weeks of protests, police intimidation, beatings, and frequent gassing of the entire street (much to the delight of people living there, who were unable to breathe inside their own apartments), including a right wing chap driving a car through a crowd, and shooting someone trying to pull him o…

>5. An idiot called Raz, and his boys start providing 'security'. Nobody asked them for it. People who ran the protest didn't ask for it. People living in the area didn't ask for it. Smells like a gang moving into a power vaccumm to me.

So you blocked the police out of a whole neighborhood of a few square blocks, and a gang moving into the power vacuum is a surprise? Come on!

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#223

Post by lisper » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

I was also struck by this:

"Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

I was reminded of the gradual but seemingly inexorable shift of control in the digital world away from the user and towards the provider: EULAs. Register for this. Sign in for that. Do you want to upgrade now or be nagged again tomorrow? (Not upgrading is not an available option.)

Also, for the last three years I was working for a startup which was recently acquired by a huge multinational corporation which I will not name. The sudden onslaught of bureaucracy was a real shock. Before, if there was a technical problem, I could either fix it myself or, at worst, talk to a sysadmin who would take care of it, often in a matter of minutes. Now progress is measured in days. And some problems just can't be fixed. They are the result of some policy instituted by someone -- no one knows who -- and the policies are immutable. That some of these policies result in egregious inefficiencies or even security vulnerabilities doesn't matter. No one cares. There isn't even the pretense of a "suggestion box" whose contents gets dumped into the trash. They are not even trying to hide the fact that no one in power gives a flying fuck what anyone on the ground thinks.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#224

Post by davrosthedalek » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #208

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

If 2016-2020 gave us a window into what it's like, I would say your last bit isn't quite right: Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths. I feel like many people paid a lot of attention, and confronted truths, and spoke out about it. Yet, Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not risk being shot in the streets at Step B, why…

Assume Covid didn't happen. Are you absolutely sure the voting outcome would have been the same?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#225

Post by ajvs » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #217

ajvs wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their presence is in itself counterprotest if you're able to figure out they're right-wing in the first place. I'm not sure what type of arbitrary behaviour you're looking for here.

It's intimidating to be walking around with guns drawn. That's what I'm trying to get at.

It's also intimidating to try to counterprotest in the face of such a huge mob when there's been numerous instances of violence from them in the past. I certainly wouldn't go without a gun if I were to show up at one of these things lest someone see me as an easy victim.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#226

Post by pontus » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

peter422 wrote: post #129

pontus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart. That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right.…

I don’t think the guy who said Obama wasn’t born in the U.S. was going to have a shot on the Democratic side.

I'm not necessarily saying that it could have happened, I'm mostly exploring how it would have played out if it had.

The left seems to suggest that only an immoral (or possibly dumb) person could possibly vote for Trump and that we need to put country over politics. That's easy to say when putting country over politics happens to agree with your own political views. I don't know if many democrats would have voted for a person like Ted Cruz in 2016 if Trump (or someone like him) had been the democratic candidate. I can almost certainly say that I personally would have played the same games of semantics that the right was playing then (and still are).

There's a lot of "right-shaming" going on when I suspect that it's just an accident that the right was the side that fell for it this time. The left should be extra vigilant to make sure that we don't fall for it ourselves.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#227

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #213

at_a_remove wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall a scant four years ago when many on the left were suggesting that the electors be faithless electors to get Clinton in office. After all, she won the popular vote, right? "What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate" indeed ?

One could argue that the electoral college (and in the past, Senators elected by state legislatures) was intended to be a circuit breaker or hurdle to prevent grossly unqualified candidates from reaching office. I challenge you to find a candidate that was less qualified and more dangerous than Trump.

Yes, we can simultaneously recognize that the Electoral College was intended to stop candidates like Trump, while also accepting that once it actually voted for Trump, he was in fact the legally and constitutionally legitimate President.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#228

Post by panax » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #208

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

If 2016-2020 gave us a window into what it's like, I would say your last bit isn't quite right: Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths. I feel like many people paid a lot of attention, and confronted truths, and spoke out about it. Yet, Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not risk being shot in the streets at Step B, why…

I was not referring to any specific group of people. And you are right, there has been a great deal of attention and action. I think it is a healthy sign and may be a reason for cautious optimism, but this is a continuous effort and we need to remain vigilant.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#229

Post by pwillia7 » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #122

Imagine you're living through the events described in the essay. You know exactly where things are heading and that the situation is dire. You're willing to do whatever it takes to prevent the inevitable from playing out. What's your plan and your next move?

If you have a family, you flee. If you are willing to commit, you infiltrate and sabotage. Once the mass turns, as described in the article, you have to subvert or you may as well just get out.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#230

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #216

jolux wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are allegations of malfeasance and even fraud that need to be investigated and adjudicated. This has been true in many previous elections. The rule is to count every legal vote and only legal votes. There are allegations by enormously unscrupulous people which have as yet been completely debunked by the courts and labeled by government officials as misinformation attempts: https://apnews.com/article/top-offici…

"And if there are legitimate problems to be found, they will be, the coalition declared. Its statement said that all of the states with close results have paper records, which allow for the recounting of each ballot, if necessary, and for “the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. ... Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process pri…

That's right.