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They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#141

Post by jolux »

wrycoder wrote: post #134
jolux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What am I supposed to think about the intent of the other side when they're trying to get a legitimate election result overturned to support their preferred presidential candidate? Who isn't living in reality here? This is not a far left position, and it's not the left that is driving FUD about US election integrity.

The country has voted. The election is still in progress. There are allegations of malfeasance and even fraud that need to be investigated and adjudicated. This has been true in many previous elections. The rule is to count every legal vote and only legal votes. Once this all plays out, and it will in the near future, then we can determine the "legitimate election result", per the Electoral College. Should Biden cont…

>There are allegations of malfeasance and even fraud that need to be investigated and adjudicated. This has been true in many previous elections. The rule is to count every legal vote and only legal votes.

There are allegations by enormously unscrupulous people which have as yet been completely debunked by the courts and labeled by government officials as misinformation attempts: https://apnews.com/article/top-officials-elections-most-secu...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#142

Post by panax »

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D."

Many wait for that single moment when the line is crossed for everyone to stand up and take (non-violent) action and speak out, but that moment never comes. That's not how this works. Authoritarianism rises gradually and relies on people looking away from it, unable to confront inconvenient truths. The time to speak out is early and not to wait for that moment for others to do so.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#143

Post by rootusrootus »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #107
rootusrootus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair. And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.

There were a set of rules. According to the rules, he won. That's not stealing the election, that's winning by the rules. That's like saying that one team "stole" a baseball game because they had fewer hits than the other team. Yeah, but they had more runs, and that's the rules of the game.

> There were a set of rules. According to the rules, he won

Correct. Which is why most of the grousing centered around the electoral college being archaic and undemocratic. Many people want to see the rules changed.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#144

Post by throwaway568468 »

jolux wrote: post #55
stickyricky wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not contradict my point.

You're saying he shot someone. That was alleged, and he was never arrested or charged. Like I said, some leftists are believers in armed self defense. I am not. But the fact of the matter is we will never know the full details of that case. I condemn bringing weapons to protests as fully as I condemn equating the role of violence on the left and the right in America right now.

Does it also apply for you to terrorists that commit suicide attacks? By definition they will never be arrested nor charged. Would you say that "we will never know" if they did kill people?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#145

Post by jhallenworld »

jolux wrote: post #9
bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

What should the left do about the looting? Police confronting protesters in the front, looting going on in the rear..

(Here is a reminder video:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3LrRUfJsY

I am all for BLM protests in general, but the looting only provokes more extreme responses from the right. I also blame the police- they rather confront peaceful protesters than go after actual thugs. Having a class of people redlined into ghettos who have no stake in the wealthier parts of society is the root of this, but what to do about it?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#146

Post by jolux »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #138
jolux wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida in 2000 bears no resemblance to this situation. Trump and his supporters are alleging widespread, systemic fraud for which there is no evidence whatsoever. Florida in 2000 was a historically close election for which there should have been a recount, but the election was handed to Bush by the Supreme Court instead.

Do you dispute that Ohio in 2004 bears a resemblance? Every Presidential election of course has its own unique context, so if you want to discuss broader patterns you have to be willing to step back from the nitty-gritty of each individual year.

I do, because Ohio was a single state with apparently some irregularities in the vote, and the effort to challenge was not even broadly supported within the Democratic party. What is being alleged here is that Democrats "stole" the election. Nonsense.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#147

Post by boieruai »

jolux wrote: post #42
stickyricky wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif... .

Killing cops isn't legal (yet). If you threaten them, they have the legal right to shoot back. That's not extrajudicial. Don't be so dramatic.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#148

Post by aazaa »

amirkdv wrote: post #121
awb wrote: post #105

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice — ‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certa…

Genuinely curious: what are some historically significant examples of "false positives"? By which I assume you mean a time when people rose to resist something they didn't really have to.

History is written by the victors. From this perspective, every successful resistance was necessary and every failed resistance was not.

Take the American Civil War, for example. If you (still) believe in the cause, it was a true positive. If you don't, then it was a false positive.

Or, to be less inflammatory, consider the French Revolution. Was that a true positive or false positive, especially considering the aftermath?

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#149

Post by jolux »

baggy_trough wrote: post #111
jolux wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to demonstrate it :)

Certainly there has been far more violence from the left than from the right over the past few years as a read through any newspaper will indicate. I suppose I wouldn't classify most of it as paramilitary in nature though. I would describe antifa as an organized violent mob, at least.

"I've read a lot about it in a newspaper" is not a demonstration. Here, I'll give you some evidence for my position: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro...

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#150

Post by mmastrac »

panax wrote: post #142

The most chilling part is "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on th…

Exactly. Consider the erosion of long-standing norms in the west over the last four years and how far society has slipped. These are the first, strong, signs that things are starting to go off the rails.
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