They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955) • Hacker News Board

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#41

Post by jascii » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

"Both the left and the right in the US have paramilitaries (antifa, proud boys)." I'm not sure I would consider Antifa "paramilitary". Antifa doesn't have a military style chain of command, nor an organized use of firearms. While the proud boys have more of a hierarchical command structure, it's still a bit of a stretch to call them "paramilitary", there does however seem to be some shared membership with right wing paramilitary militia.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#42

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

stickyricky wrote: post #33

jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif....

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#43

Post by baggy_trough » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #9

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

This is demonstrably false.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#44

Post by youareostriches » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

This is both-sidesism, which is an intellectually lazy excuse to avoid taking action while appearing morally above the fray.

Trump literally uses cult-like techniques to control his followers, traffics in conspiracy theories, attacks as "fake" any news media which doesn't praise him effusively, and is actively undermining democracy itself by claiming that any votes against him are illegitimate. There is no vaguely liberal or left politician in US history who has done what Trump has.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#45

Post by stickyricky » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #42

stickyricky wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. In Portland, an anti-fascist protestor shot a man (rightly or wrongly). Anti-fascists can and do show up with weapons. It is not a false equivalence to say so.

That man never got a trial, he was killed extrajudicially: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/us/michael-reinoehl-antif... .

That does not contradict my point.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#46

Post by jolux » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #38

jolux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

How quickly we forget the heavily-armed antifa militia that occupied 3 city blocks in downtown Seattle, whose assault rifle-wielding “security team” assaulted journalists, intimidated residents, and murdered an unarmed black teenager. Residents and businesses owners are currently suing the city for abandoning the neighborhood’s police station, providing porta-potties to the armed occupiers, and ceding control of this…

I'm friends with several people that participated in CHAZ and your assessment of it is incorrect. It was doomed from the start but calling the people occupying it a violent mob is not correct. I personally believe it was a mistake because the people occupying it did not have or want a monopoly on the use of force in their area, meaning that it became a site of unrelated mob and gang violence because the police were not present. That's different from saying it was a violent mob who occupied it with the intent to harm others.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#47

Post by sfg » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #9

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

Antifascists aren't holding rallies chanting "Jews will not replace us" and showing up to peaceful protests with weapons to kill protesters. The amount of paramilitary activity on the left is minimal, especially when compared to the right, adherents of which been caught in several (edit: at least one, Governor Whitmer, I can't find evidence of others right now) plots over the past few months to kidnap and even murder…

> Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#48

Post by pontus » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #6

This is a powerful piece about a time in Germany where people couldn't, to paraphrase, see where things could go, and so couldn't really understand when things have started. I suspect that readers will see this piece as a reflection of their greatest fears about our own Republic. Unfortunately, the message will be lost by those who are most in need of hearing it. That includes many of the readers of this piece who th…

I broadly agree with you. That being said, I don't think it's fair at this point to equate what's going on on the left to what's going on on the right. They are leagues apart.

That's not to say that the same thing couldn't happen on the left or that the people on the left in some way are superior. Quite the opposite. I think the people on the left are just as susceptible to the type of effects happening on the right.

I often wonder what would have happened if Trump had run as a democrat in 2016 instead talking about being pro-choice and how we need to get medicare for all etc. If he had run against someone like Ted Cruz, I would not be surprised if a lot of the left (myself included) had voted for Trump and excused all his talk as "locker room talk" or "speaking his mind" just like the right ultimately did. It may be nothing more than an accident that the right was the side that "fell victim" to his antics.

This brings me to a serious worry of mine. A lot of people are talking about how Trump is too incompetent to successfully install himself as a dictator, but that the next person may be much more competent. These "warnings" are directed toward the right. However, there's nothing that prevents the next dictator wanna-be from being on the left, and the left needs to be equally vigilant.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#49

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

cal5k wrote: post #29

na85 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Both the left and the right [...] call basic and decent democratic norms into question (free speech, elections). I only see Republicans doing this, but I am not American so perhaps my perspective is not as acute as someone "on the inside". Can you link to instances of Democrats calling free speech and elections into question?

I suppose you missed the 3-year period where Trump was supposedly a Russian agent who stole the election? That's just the tenor of American politics right now in general.

When the left complained that Trump became president while several million more people wanted his opponent to win, characterizing that as 'stealing the election' does not seem particularly unfair.

And given the oddly pervasive connections between Trump's family and Russia, I can't really fault people for thinking there might very well be a connection. An awful lot of smoke, there is.

Re: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 (1955)

#50

Post by youareostriches » Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #31

didericis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t speak for the person you’re asking, but Tulsi Gabbard is representative of what I see as the rational middle.

The only way you can see Tulsi as the "middle" is because the overton window has slammed so far right. In a rational society, Biden and Obama would be considered middle and AOC/Bernie left.

In most countries around the world, Sanders' policies are mainstream.