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Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#201

Post by mrlala »

trevyn wrote: post #39
kleiba wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kinda true. Alternative, if you personal life style allows for it, you may start growing your own tomatoes -- you might not get them all year around that way, but the taste difference is so worth it. And in the end, you gotta eat something . I suppose instead of not eating anything healthy at all, the more prominent strategy seems to have been to accompany healthy produce with super-unhealthy condiments (basic…

I think salt and fat are not as unhealthy as people have made them out to be over recent decades. Especially considering what foods people choose to eat to replace the lost calories that usually come from fats. Sugar, though, yeah. Sugar is the devil.

>Sugar, though, yeah. Sugar is the devil.

And seems almost impossible to avoid unless you cook everything from scratch and don't snack on anything premade.. it's so crazy.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#202

Post by fsflover »

xwdv wrote: post #198
fsflover wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/

This does a piss poor job of explaining why they should be eaten. The main points are: Vitamins and minerals (which you can still find in non-vegetables or supplements) Fiber (which you can get from whole grains) Prevents heart diseases (which is not exclusive to vegetables) Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) Taste good? (there are tastier foods...) I’m still not seeing the p…

> fills your stomach with useless fiber

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/f...

> Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?)

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#203

Post by xwdv »

fsflover wrote: post #202
xwdv wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does a piss poor job of explaining why they should be eaten. The main points are: Vitamins and minerals (which you can still find in non-vegetables or supplements) Fiber (which you can get from whole grains) Prevents heart diseases (which is not exclusive to vegetables) Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) Taste good? (there are tastier foods...) I’m still not seeing the p…

> fills your stomach with useless fiber https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/f... > Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...

Fiber has diminishing returns after you eat a certain amount per day. You can easily get your fiber from whole grains, and pound for pound whole grains will be a richer source of carbohydrates than vegetables.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#204

Post by feralimal »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #136
feralimal wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me.

> I agree. I actually don't think organic is as good as whatever natural methods were used. I would prefer wild or food grown on less 'managed' land - that would be the gold standard for me. Then you'd starve on your golden standard, and probably revert to the 30 year life expectancy most of Humanity had prior to the advent of agriculture. Collectively as a Species I don't think there is a single thing, maybe making…

That's all a bit harsh! My gold standard is fair surely! I don't eat like that often, but I can dream!

Agriculture is absolutely a boon to humanity. But that doesn't mean that I need to go along with big agra, does it? I don't agree with oil based fertilisers being used. And monocrops.

It is absolutely the system we have, but its not a good one. Smaller farming, locally sourced food would be a better way to go. I am a fan of permaculture - I'm itching to try this when circumstances permit. This is a way of densely growing food.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#205

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #200
hourislate wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's the same with grass fed beef and all the other "organic" stuff - they are never actually connected to better health outcomes... I'm not sure that would even be possible considering how much time and effort a study like that would require. But you might be able to hypothesize that eating a clean/chemically free (ex: Round Up/Glyphosate) food item would be better for you. Comparing a factory farm pig that was fed…

> Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that someone consuming this animal would benefit more than someone consuming the factory farmed pig? No. This is the naturalistic fallacy [1] in new clothes. We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff. Though even then, it isn’t anything inherent to the production method cau…

> We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff

you're presuming the conclusion. You're asking for (additional??) studies to show something you've stated without evidence. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#206

Post by nitrogen »

dmitriid wrote: post #37
brailsafe wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's also a genetic component. I planted Roma seeds from a store bought tomato, grew the plant, and they still didn't have much flavour compared to any other garden tomato I've tried.

Yup. Store varieties are bread for exactly this: transportation. I read somewhere that unfortunately the taste and transportability are mutually exclusive when you go through traditional selective breeding.

Tomatoes are often hybrids, so growing from seed you'll be missing some of the characteristics of the parent. Not sure if this applies to roma tomatoes.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#207

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #205
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that someone consuming this animal would benefit more than someone consuming the factory farmed pig? No. This is the naturalistic fallacy [1] in new clothes. We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff. Though even then, it isn’t anything inherent to the production method cau…

> We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff you're presuming the conclusion. You're asking for (additional??) studies to show something you've stated without evidence. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

> You're asking for (additional??) studies to show something you've stated without evidence

I believe we have evidence for factory-farmed meat being less nutritionally dense than pasture-raised meat. But the reason isn’t the factory farming per se. It’s the correlates to factory farming.

So OP’s example is true. Just not for the reason hypothesised.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#208

Post by fsflover »

xwdv wrote: post #203
fsflover wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fills your stomach with useless fiber https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/f... > Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?) https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...

Fiber has diminishing returns after you eat a certain amount per day. You can easily get your fiber from whole grains, and pound for pound whole grains will be a richer source of carbohydrates than vegetables.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you...

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#209

Post by amanaplanacanal »

rbecker wrote: post #185
TaupeRanger wrote: post #148

This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this su…

> It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this supermarket carrot" to "you will get fewer diseases and/or live longer or better if you eat carrots from soil 100 years ago". If only there was some kind of study linking vitamin [1] and protein intake [2] to health [3]... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin#Deficient_intake [2] https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food... [3] htt…

Yes there are known essential vitamins, minerals, and amino and fatty acids. That does not mean that current produce doesn’t provide enough of them. It’s possible that is true, but also possible that it is not.

Your last link just shows a correlation, not any kind of causation. It is suggestive, and somebody should do the actual research which might tell us whether it is causative. But they won’t, because it would cost too much and nobody could profit monetarily from the results.

Nutritional science is in a pretty sad state right now. It’s cheap and easy to find correlation between things, but expensive and time consuming to actually test interventions to see whether they work.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#210

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #207
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff you're presuming the conclusion. You're asking for (additional??) studies to show something you've stated without evidence. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

> You're asking for (additional??) studies to show something you've stated without evidence I believe we have evidence for factory-farmed meat being less nutritionally dense than pasture-raised meat. But the reason isn’t the factory farming per se . It’s the correlates to factory farming. So OP’s example is true. Just not for the reason hypothesised.

Where's that evidence.
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