Live data from Hacker News

Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

scientificamerican.com

191–200 of 239 posts

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#191
It is odd. I cannot and do not claim things are not different. But, I always find tomato to be an odd example that everyone goes to. I was taught that these were not even eaten until the Americas. Is that not the case?

More, I have never liked them. One of my children, though, couldn't be happier than with a bucket of them. Just eats them straight like an apple. How much of what people taste is novelty and affected by age?

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#192
post #5

Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

You can get usually decent tomatoes in the UK at local greengrocers / corner shops. Not as good as the ones you can get in France or Italy in season, but a lot better than supermarket ones.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#193
post #135

There's no scientific basis for my choice, but I have almost entirely stopped eating seasonal produce out of a season. I eat tomatoes in the summer and early autumn and then I patiently wait months to eat them again. When the winter comes I switch to vegetables that I haven't eaten at all or in limited amount for past half a year - beetroot, cabbage, carrot and more. I also eat all kinds of quality fermented, process…

When I went to Italy on vacation, all of the produce had massive quantities of the same two fruits, prominently displayed. (Was June, I think it was apricots and cherries.) And that is what most customers were buying. So we bought those, too, and they were delicious. Then tried buying some things that were out of season, and they were terrible. Which is just to say, some cultures are still super in tune with the seas…

That's still common in North America, just not at the major chains. I often shop at Asian grocery markets, and it's hard to go wrong picking from the big bins that are spilling out onto the sidewalk.

Another advantage: more different kinds of greens than I knew existed. And they're basically all delicious stir-fried with garlic & salt.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#194

I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you.

> I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you. The argument that it…

> food supply not dependent on inputs like artificial fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides aren't that old and that some countries never adopted it due to the costs associated.

I was reading a thing the other day (I'll link to it if I can find it) that was pointing out that something like 70% of the people in the world are still fed today by old school farming. Chemical/industrial agriculture only supplies food for about 30% of the world.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#195

I do garlic at commercial scale with fertilizers but my own food is grown 100% organic. There is a big difference in taste. What we should keep in mind though is that organic is difficult/expensive to scale. I doubt that it will be possible to feed the entire global population with 100% organic food. So that tasteless tomato that you buy at the store might not be the best but it does feed you.

Check out "Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem with Gabe Brown" et. al.

He's a commercial farmer that's been doing regenerative agriculture for a while now, he's got "the gift of gab" and his stuff is all scientifically grounded and verified in the real world on his working farm in N. Dakota.

Rather than being difficult or expensive the methods he's using save money, increase the quality and quantity of his topsoil year-on-year, and he actually makes more profit per acre than his neighbors.

https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#196
post #5

Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

> Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally)

Your problem is on word 4 - tomatoes do not grow well in the UK.

Places were tomatoes grow well locally do have good tomatoes (in season). I can confirm this personally for Switzerland, California, Bulgaria.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#197

This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this su…

The article is pop sci, and thus not a representative of "nutrition epidemiology".

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#198
post #127

I have a hard time figuring out the point of vegetables. They are so low calorie that I’d have to eat a massive amount of them to have them contribute any significant amount to a meal, more than what is really practical. They are not really an efficient source of protein, carbs or fats the way lean meat, grains and beans and nuts are. So what’s the point? Vitamins and minerals?

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/why-5-a-day/

This does a piss poor job of explaining why they should be eaten. The main points are:

Vitamins and minerals (which you can still find in non-vegetables or supplements)

Fiber (which you can get from whole grains)

Prevents heart diseases (which is not exclusive to vegetables)

Makes a balanced diet (which is pretty vague, what’s so balancing about it?)

Taste good? (there are tastier foods...)

I’m still not seeing the point or hassle of vegetables. If you don’t even cook them right you can destroy the vitamins which are the primary benefit. Not to mention eating the quantity required to reach recommended levels is probably not sustainable.

For someone that doesn’t like eating and cooking, vegetables are a logistical nightmare, a little cup of broccoli only provides like 30 calories and just fills your stomach with useless fiber that makes it a struggle to eat other more efficient nutrient dense foods.

I feel like vegetables are more for spicing up a dish than as a primary source of nutrition.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#199

This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this su…

>It's the same with grass fed beef and all the other "organic" stuff - they are never actually connected to better health outcomes...

I'm not sure that would even be possible considering how much time and effort a study like that would require. But you might be able to hypothesize that eating a clean/chemically free (ex: Round Up/Glyphosate) food item would be better for you.

Comparing a factory farm pig that was fed GMO Soy it's entire life and raised in conditions that encourage disease/sickness to a pig raised in a clean/organic pasture with no exposure to synthetics/chemicals, I would imagine there is a noticeable difference in health.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that someone consuming this animal would benefit more than someone consuming the factory farmed pig?

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#200

This kind of tripe is why nutrition epidemiology is basically the laughing stock of modern science. First of all, the article is almost 10 years old and references data from 1999 at the latest. But most importantly, it uses common nutrition weasel words like "healthy" and "good for you", which are not supported (in fact, CAN'T be supported) by the study. It is a huge leap to go from "there's less Vitamin C in this su…

>It's the same with grass fed beef and all the other "organic" stuff - they are never actually connected to better health outcomes... I'm not sure that would even be possible considering how much time and effort a study like that would require. But you might be able to hypothesize that eating a clean/chemically free (ex: Round Up/Glyphosate) food item would be better for you. Comparing a factory farm pig that was fed…

> Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that someone consuming this animal would benefit more than someone consuming the factory farmed pig?

No. This is the naturalistic fallacy [1] in new clothes.

We need the additional studies showing how stress and poor diet makes most factory-farmed meat less nutritionally dense than the pasture-raised stuff. Though even then, it isn’t anything inherent to the production method causing the variance.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Post reply on HN