Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

ish.app

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 484 posts

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#421

Post by zepto »

_ph_ wrote: post #358
zepto wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, t…

Of course users can control their device. Control doesn't mean assembly programming, control means to decide how they want to use it. I am not a car mechanic, I won't approach my car with a tool. Still I control my car as I can drive it to any workshop of my choice to have changes done. The car manufacturer has no say in this.

You can take your phone to anyone you like and have them make whatever changes you pay for.

That is currently your right.

It’s not clear what your complaint is.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#422

Post by zepto »

saagarjha wrote: post #379
zepto wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, t…

> All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Right, but when you buy an iPhone Apple says that they are the only people you can trust. The argument is that this isn't necessarily the best scenario.

Many people think it is best for them.

If you don’t think it is best, nobody is forcing you to trust them.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#423

Post by HunterWare »

devwastaken wrote: post #363
sooheon wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Apple store does not replace any open standards, it is merely an alternative. Apple cannot and does not you from using or paying for open hardware and software.

When a market becomes a requirement for society to operate it no longer is allowed to hide behind that veil. It's intellectually dishonest to ignore the issue at hand and instead excuse it with a "well no one forces you". Markets are a force that shape how people can live.

This market became a “requirement” (which is a bit BS since Android ecosystem is still much larger than iOS, but anyhow...) because people voted for this system consistently over many years (again and again). They voted with their wallets for it when the iPhone was a tiny newborn dream and RIM/Nokia were king, they continued to vote for it year on year after Android was released, and they are still voting for it... as is.

With this in mind: It’s arguably also intellectually dishonest to pretend that we all woke up today in some kind of “iOS only world” and should now regulate it. a) It’s not, and b) you would be killing the very thing that made everyone want this ecosystem in the first place.

If all the “regulate them!” and “open the store!” people win, then history says most will eventually move on to a new ecosystem that works like the old one (which people evidently like). Android has been open the whole time and the money gravitates away from it... If highly regulated and fully open phones worked so well then iOS would be a footnote in history books, and not the powerhouse that you want to squash.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#424

Post by zepto »

ethbr0 wrote: post #371
zepto wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither Apple’s users, nor developers for iOS are forced to do anything. Comparing buying a phone to being enslaved is quite bizarre.

This is exactly the perspective we disagree over: in my opinion, Apple users and developers are absolutely forced to do something. There is a thing. They may or may not prefer different ways of handling that thing. Apple makes a choice for them, and prevents them from making their own choice. Call it what you will, but in my book, lacking the freedom to make your own choices is the definition of slavery.

Can you explain how anybody is forced to either buy an iPhone, or develop for it?

I am not aware of Apple using force to make people do either of these things.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#425

Post by HunterWare »

#unpopularopinion: If someone wants an Android experience they should buy an Android phone where iSH functionality is basically built it. iSH is cool, but they were skirting the rules and everyone knows it. This isn’t shocking, and there were bound to be hiccups on the fringes of the rules like this.

If you want a phone for just getting the normal stuff done in a curated world, then pick iOS as that’s what they are trying to do. If you want a phone/device that is wide open to play with, extend, and hack on in a basically open manner, then pick Android as that’s what they are trying to do.

What seems like a waste of time is to pick one side and then complain about it not being enough like the other side. Pick your flavor, the world offers both. And then quit whining if the other side is more successful by some metric... Make your chosen side better or switch.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#426

Post by zepto »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #328
zepto wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do what you want with your phone. You have a legal right to jailbreak it and hack on it in any way you like.

That relies on the device being so insecure that it has a rootable vulnerability, which is even worse.

So what? It’s your right to do it.

Nobody can legitimately claim they aren’t allowed to do what they want with their phone.

It’s simply not true.

It’s obviously true that many people wish Apple designed their software differently.

Those people are free and not to buy things they don’t like the design of.

Not one person on this thread has explained how they were forced to buy an iPhone.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#427

Post by zepto »

saagarjha wrote: post #378
sooheon wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how this is an example of rent seeking? I can see how it is of profit seeking, but how is offering a product, services, and platform rent seeking?

It'd be rent seeking if Apple wasn't making the platform better for developers.

Which they obviously are.

Some developers may disagree with Apple’s strategy, but it’s obvious that they are investing in technologies that support developers, and continue to reach more customers - which also makes the platform better for developers.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#428

Post by _ph_ »

zepto wrote: post #421
_ph_ wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course users can control their device. Control doesn't mean assembly programming, control means to decide how they want to use it. I am not a car mechanic, I won't approach my car with a tool. Still I control my car as I can drive it to any workshop of my choice to have changes done. The car manufacturer has no say in this.

You can take your phone to anyone you like and have them make whatever changes you pay for. That is currently your right. It’s not clear what your complaint is.

Whom can I pay for to install something like Termux on my iPad? Apple not only forbids third-parties from offering such a service via the App Store, they also do their best to prevent this by any other path. That they are not 100% successful (jailbreaks) doesn't mean the situation is anyhow comparable to cars, where there is a wide ecosystem of 3rd party support for customization.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#429

Post by zepto »

kaba0 wrote: post #399
SZJX wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the anti-Apple arguments I see here seem to have an element of ideological fixation. IMO the practicalities of the real world are always more involved than an ideological black/white distinction, and just as you said here there are always tradeoffs on different fronts. Openness instead of a walled garden is nice, but how far can you go with it? If you think about it, every company is essentially a plutocrati…

There is a misunderstanding of market will choose the best competitor. A competition in of itself is not fair, it needs heavy regulation to become fair - like a running contest could be won by anyone if they were to shoot the other contenders. And this is what happens in unregulated markets - we’ve got an oligopoly, with a really high bar to enter - basically impossible for a newcomer (note that even Microsoft failed…

This is simply false.

Newcomers enter the phone market all the time.

What we don’t have is an adequately developed alternative OS that can appeal to regular users yet.

Microsoft failed because they have their own legacy to protect.

Google is compromised by their need to maintain their position in search.

There are plenty of Linux phone projects.

The only reason none of these are a good replacement yet is a lack of time and investment.

iOS didn’t just appear out of thin air - it took more than a decade to develop.

It’s easier than ever now to develop an alternative.

People who are focussing on forcing Apple to install alternative stores are by definition not interested in an alternative platform.

If they were, they would be investing in building one.

They just want access to Apple’s customer base.

That’s all there is to this.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#430

Post by zepto »

kaba0 wrote: post #400
zepto wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s your choice whether you operate within the walls Apple has put up. Why do you remain within them?

Because if you want to enter the mobile market you HAVE to? This “the customers will choose the best” thing has never been true, even in its source. The context is “in a fair competition between competing products” (which won’t be true again, because humans are not rational - otherwise marketing would not matter) Also, it’s not like I have any chance ever to compete with Apple, even if I were to be the cleverest peop…

You don’t have to ‘enter the mobile market’. That is a lifestyle choice. It’s not part of your identity.

At least you admit this is about your desire to sell things to Apple’s customer base.

You could always build for Android.

You can compete with Apple.

Obviously not on your own, but remember that when Apple was founded it was just a few people in a garage, whereas IBM was a global corporation.

You can choose to contribute to an alternative if you like.

As for customers ‘not choosing the best thing’: It sounds like you are saying that people don’t know what is good for them and you know better.

I disagree. I believe people value things differently from you or even I.

If we want them to choose an open mobile operating system, we need to build one that does the things they want and is open.

Post reply on HN