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About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

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Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#351

Post by sooheon »

Osiris wrote: post #294
zepto wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not suggesting consumer behavior should change Apple. I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. If you need alternate stores - buy Android. There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything.

> If you need alternate stores - buy Android. And when Google decides to stop allowing that, then what? There's a duopoly and history suggests that when one can get away with rent seeking the other will follow. If we continue to allow this behavior now then we guarantee it'll continue on the future. This is exactly what happened with the 30%. Google did it because Apple had set the standard. They didn't do it because…

Can you explain how this is an example of rent seeking? I can see how it is of profit seeking, but how is offering a product, services, and platform rent seeking?

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#352

Post by colechristensen »

xnyan wrote: post #343
colechristensen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, your biggest risk when building your business on iOS will be selling nothing, which is the most common result. So many people try and the expected outcome is nothing. People tend to like iOS better because the app ecosystem is better and it is that way because of restrictions. The restrictions aren't necessarily the exactly correct set to achieve the quality and profit apple seeks, but if they were all that terri…

> People tend to like iOS better because the app ecosystem is better and it is that way I can’t speak for you but I know that I am prone (as most humans are I think) to project myself on others. I use iOS because it’s the only OS that runs on Apple-designed mobile silicon, which is extremely good in terms of performance. Also (and this is not a joke) my partner hates green bubbles. You may be surprised how many peopl…

Well you listed several things which are proxies for the quality of the iOS experience, a significant amount of which is a direct result of the more curated app store. It's popular and a status signalling object - but it wouldn't be if the core experience was bad. Many people just follow tastemakers and don't know at all why the thing they "like" is better or worse than anything else, that's fine, but they're still doing so ultimately because of quality.

The app store moderation isn't the only dimension of the quality of the ecosystem, but it has a significant effect.

I have a mild preference for android, but it was more or less just luck which landed me on an iPhone for my current phone. It literally came down to which one I could acquire quicker after I destroyed my old phone before an extended out of state trip. The Pixel I bought is still in its sealed box because the shipping was delayed while I literally picked up an iPhone from the Apple campus store at the last minute before my flight.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#353

Post by inapis »

judge2020 wrote: post #336
imglorp wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was that little storm a few months back where they turned on code signature checking on shell scripts? One could just imagine the final step is you have to have a developer license to run your own code.

Source? Can't find a HN submission regarding this, and the most I found via Google is this question on the Apple developer forums https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/127709 .

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23273247

This has driven me insane in 10.15.7. If my ISP has intermittent connectivity, macOS starts beach balling. To prevent this I have to shut off internet.

The catch?

Shutting down the network requires suffering through multiple beach balls. Every single mouse click or key press invokes a beach ball. Everything goes away the moment internet is connected.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#354

Post by sooheon »

echelon wrote: post #305
ratww wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A firewall partially "fixes" part of the spying/tracking, but doesn't solve any of the other issues I pointed, especially concerning forced installation of software that screws up with my machine. Also, the fact I use a firewall doesn't excuse developers from being assholes and spying/tracking me behind my back. It's my computer, it's a developer's sacred right to have any kind of code that acts against my interests.…

To copy the argument used by Apple supporters, you can choose another bank. > It's my computer, it's a developer's sacred right to have any kind of code that acts against my interests. Apple has created an exclusionary economic zone and put 50% of Americans in it. This is unprecedented. > Also, the fact I use a firewall doesn't excuse developers from being assholes and spying/tracking me behind my back. A sandbox wil…

> Apple has created an exclusionary economic zone and put 50% of Americans in it. This is unprecedented.

You say this like Apple did it at gunpoint. They offered a superior product, and people bought it.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#355

Post by sooheon »

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #313
zepto wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not suggesting consumer behavior should change Apple. I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. If you need alternate stores - buy Android. There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything.

> I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. It's cute you think this is why people buy things. Also, you're completely missing the point here. Developers have no choice but to developer for Apple and that means that whatever Apple says, Apple gets. That's called bullying, at the very least, and I'm not alone in asserting that it extends into behavior that should at least be regul…

> Developers have no choice but to developer for Apple and that means that whatever Apple says, Apple gets.

Developers absolutely have a choice. They have one choice if they want access to Apple's customers.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#356

Post by gls2ro »

Guvante wrote: post #302
crazygringo wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you quote that 4 times? We're OK with the phrase because the alternative was people's phones being infested with malware and viruses. It's pretty obvious that's what happened. Apple built a phone you can let your whole family use without worries. Why are you confused by this? If computing is your goal, then an iPhone is obviously not the device for you. Fortunately for you, there are tons of other platforms f…

Multiple app stores are no less secure than singular app stores everything else being the same. Plenty of people aren't okay with Apple's actions but there aren't exactly great alternatives. Nothing is stopping Apple from allowing other stores other than control and in app purchase profits.

I think this construction is not so simple.

How would Apple let other app stores and make sure they are secure?

Will they review apps stores? Will it be rules for what an app store should do? If so, the is this the kind of app stores that people want as alternatives: app stores which follow Apple rules?

If Apple will not review app stores and let them be installed than how are they secure? What stops a malware to be presented as an alternative store and then allow installation of a messenger while saving user and password from users?

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#357

Post by sooheon »

peterkelly wrote: post #257
ratww wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> use banking apps Coming from a country where at some point the only way to have internet banking was to install an impossible-to-uninstall rootkit in my own machine that fucked up accessibility, messed up Steam and made it impossible for me from using competitors (because other banks needed incompatible rootkits), iOS being the way it is makes a lot of sense. I once had to spend a whole weekend untangling the mess…

South Korea/Windows XP?

SK's situation got a lot better with the new wave of personal banking (Toss, Kakao Bank), basically playing catchup to China.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#358

Post by _ph_ »

zepto wrote: post #317
strken wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty clear reason for passing legislation to force Apple to allow third party stores, and I think it has been explained well in the parent comments: some people believe users should control their devices. There are also pretty clear reasons for not doing so: other people believe Apple should control its devices. Politicians can legislate things. They already get to dictate how parties interact. I'm not su…

This is not an accurate representation of reality. Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago. All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software. Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do. Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, t…

Of course users can control their device. Control doesn't mean assembly programming, control means to decide how they want to use it. I am not a car mechanic, I won't approach my car with a tool. Still I control my car as I can drive it to any workshop of my choice to have changes done. The car manufacturer has no say in this.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#359

Post by _ph_ »

colechristensen wrote: post #150
mortenjorck wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is this: Do you want to build within a certain set of categories Apple unambiguously supports? If you're building a to-do app supported by a monthly subscription, there's no shifting foundation there. If you're building a free-to-play game whose in-app purchases consist of "handful of gems," "bag of gems," and "trunk of gems," you have nothing to worry about from App Review. If you're building something…

No, your biggest risk when building your business on iOS will be selling nothing, which is the most common result. So many people try and the expected outcome is nothing. People tend to like iOS better because the app ecosystem is better and it is that way because of restrictions. The restrictions aren't necessarily the exactly correct set to achieve the quality and profit apple seeks, but if they were all that terri…

I do think the iOS app ecosystem is pretty terrible. I buy Apple because the overall security and privacy is better and of course the ecosystem ties. But I have mostly given up on shopping for apps. The app store is flooded with me too games with in-app purchases and knockoffs of legit apps. To make it worse, Apple puts advertisements before actual search results when you search for an app. Innovative new apps are rare or just get drowned in the app store.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#360

Post by lern_too_spel »

askmike wrote: post #256
gameswithgo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course their ecosystem works for their users, those of us it doesn't work for have left. We are just encouraging the rest of you who actually enjoy computers to leave too, and warning app developers to avoid that platform if your app is actually interesting or if a lot of people's careers ride on it, since who knows what apple may decide is not acceptable in the future.

I'm sitting here as a developer, contemplating if my next phone should be an iPhone or Android - and this is the gist of what I think: - If I buy an Apple I buy into this developer unfriendly ecosystem with a big gatekeeper. - If I buy an Android I pay with all my privacy, on top of that Google is also a big bully to small app developers. - Besides Google or Apple, what choices are there?

How do you pay with privacy if you get an Android phone? On an Android phone, you get to choose which SMS app you use, which means neither Apple nor anyone else sees who you are messaging in order to check if you're messaging an iMessage user. You get to install apps on your device without telling anybody. You get to develop apps for your own device without giving your banking details to anybody. You can find your location without sending your location to Apple or anybody else. None of those are possible on iOS. Freedom and privacy go hand in hsnd.
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