Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List • Hacker News Board

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#201

Post by jhayward » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #78

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Simply paying for cattle that wolves have eaten isn't enough. Wolves induce panic in herds, causing them to go over cliffs or trample down fences and cross busy roads, causing accidents. In Germany this isn't currently paid for by the state, because the law doesn't say so, the causality is hard to prove (basically you need a piece of flesh with a wolve's dental pattern) and the farmer is often first in line and goes…

> Also, grazing cattle outside is desirable for better land use (usually grassland isn't good for much else) and keeping the current state of ecosystems (without grazing, bushes and trees will take over)

This is complete nonsense. Cattle grazing has been devastating North American habitat for a couple of centuries, and current BLM practices just continue the same abuse. The Texas Hill country is badly damaged from overgrazing, this had led to loss of topsoil, massive loss of groundwater, and completely altered habitat for native species.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#202

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

gbrown wrote: post #11

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Wolves are definitely NOT a big problem for bovine cattle.

Cows with calfs can join together and be defensive and pretty letal also if upset. If there is a bull protecting the whole herd wolves had nothing to do.

Wolves are a problem for sheep and goats, but will be need to be really desperate for attacking a group of healthy cows. The races of cows able to pass months alone in the mountain are perfectly able to hold their ground against a wolf.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#203

Post by aejnsn » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:23 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #193

aejnsn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand farmers and farming. Do you think a true farmer is more dedicated to completing government paperwork or more dedicated to raising another head of livestock? For the gamers/hackers, this is why we fund judges, prosecutors, investigators, and the rest of the court system. You cannot make the case that 5% of those with bad intentions ruin it for the 95% of those with good intentions. Not saying th…

I've never heard of co-pasturing donkeys to combat predators before. How does that work? That's neat.

My grandparents did some (mostly subsistence) livestock farming when I was a tiny kid. Donkeys are extremely territorial, and snap into this fit of pissed off rage when an intruder threatens their territory or what they identify as 'their' herd. Usually a well-acclimated herd will understand the donkey as their protector. If being ran down by this raging anger-beast doesn't spook a predator enough, a donkey will stomp it bad enough to bring new meaning to the phrase 'ass-kicking'. I've never seen a pasture-mated donkey scared by much of anything other than loud noise, they're brave and loyal to a fault.

Great Pyrenees dogs are amazing defenders as well. I've seen those put the brakes on some prowling coyotes and put a chase on them so hard that they defy physics to get over a fence. Exceptionally friendly to humans, and other dogs, outside their pastures. One of the good boys used to visit for pets and treats. :)

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#204

Post by ip26 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

yupyup54133 wrote: post #76

undersuit wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wolves are naturally moving into open territory as their numbers grow in Wisconsin at least. Why do you think this is a class issue?

False, they are being introduced into forests in the northern half of the state but are not being introduced into the forests in the southern half of the state. Also, when wolves are found close to the suburbs they are relocated to the north. This is a class issue because most of the state's wealth is located in the southern half of the state and it is mostly the southern half of the state that is forcing an unwanted…

Are they actually being human-introduced, or are they migrating south from Canada? It's not exactly shocking that migrating wolves would appear in the northern half first.

Google seems to indicate they are simply migrating.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#205

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #146

dboreham wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacte…

Here in the Netherlands we also pay farmers for killed livestock. And nobody is happy with the situation we're in now. Not the farmers, not the public, not the sheep and not even the environmentalists. Public support for wolves is growing, but only among people who don't know about the problems they cause. One of the main reason farmers hate wolves is because it's madness. A wolf kills 14 sheep in one night and only…

> the environmentalist arrogantly call everyone who doesn't love the wolf stupid

Taking in mind how well we are doing in the last years, maybe would be wise to stop making fun of the environmentalists for a while.

I'm still expecting the other part proposing a single valid solution that is not based in 'pay me because I'm unable to understand how to use a shepherd dog'.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#206

Post by spiderfarmer » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

abfan1127 wrote: post #168

spiderfarmer wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making a naive assumption based on one popular Facebook video. The wolves didn't make any difference to the deer population.

do you have information to back that claim up?

"It's a really romantic story," Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty said. "It's a story about a world that doesn't really exist."

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debun...

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#207

Post by spiderfarmer » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #205

spiderfarmer wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the Netherlands we also pay farmers for killed livestock. And nobody is happy with the situation we're in now. Not the farmers, not the public, not the sheep and not even the environmentalists. Public support for wolves is growing, but only among people who don't know about the problems they cause. One of the main reason farmers hate wolves is because it's madness. A wolf kills 14 sheep in one night and only…

> the environmentalist arrogantly call everyone who doesn't love the wolf stupid Taking in mind how well we are doing in the last years, maybe would be wise to stop making fun of the environmentalists for a while. I'm still expecting the other part proposing a single valid solution that is not based in 'pay me because I'm unable to understand how to use a shepherd dog'.

> a single valid solution

Shoot the wolves is a single valid solution. But you don't want to hear it.

And I think you don't know how shepherd dogs work. Otherwise you would have dismissed that as a valid solution too.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#208

Post by aejnsn » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #42

gbrown wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Reintroduction and protection of large predators has diffuse benefits and concentrated damages. It affects the average rancher orders of magnitude more (and importantly, more negatively) than it affects the average non-rancher. So you have a group with common interests who are ready to act as an obstruction to the greater social good because it's going to financially harm them. You _can_ tell them to shove it, but th…

I don't know if I agree with the first bit. Wolves were reintroduced to my original part of the US to much benefit, not just the conservation of the species. Stupid whitetail deer were running wild, destroying flora and destroying too many cars on the region's highways.

Departments of game and wildlife tried to address this by issuing more hunting permits for whitetail. Didn't work. There are only so many hunters, and they hunt all they can. More permits doesn't do anything for them when the population is booming. They're not hunting anything that exists, they're looking for trophies at this point, and taking the best of the gene pool. A group of vehicle insurance companies were organizing events, leasing hunting land, and paying bounties in a couple counties due to the rampant whitetail population.

Wolves were reintroduced there to much benefit making for a healthy population of whitetail. Also, because the whitetail overpopulation has been curtailed, game law violations dropped in that rural part of the world. It takes a dedicated hunter to actually 'hunt', but attracts any idiot with a rifle when game in an area is rampantly overpopulated.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#209

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #207

pvaldes wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the environmentalist arrogantly call everyone who doesn't love the wolf stupid Taking in mind how well we are doing in the last years, maybe would be wise to stop making fun of the environmentalists for a while. I'm still expecting the other part proposing a single valid solution that is not based in 'pay me because I'm unable to understand how to use a shepherd dog'.

> a single valid solution Shoot the wolves is a single valid solution. But you don't want to hear it. And I think you don't know how shepherd dogs work. Otherwise you would have dismissed that as a valid solution too.

They are more valuable alive than dead.

> You don't know how shepherd dogs work

Sorry but the facts speak loudly.

Last month I had personally visited the area of Europe with a biggest density of wolves (excepting maybe Chernobyl). We tried, and failed, to see a single wolf. There were cows munching all around. There was deer scattered all around the valley. I walked the oak forest alone without any problem.

In this area a single human with a few dogs manages routinely 300 sheep without losing a single one by wolves. Not a single attack reported in the entire year. Humanity has being doing the same for 4000 years. Is perfectly possible.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#210

Post by corty » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

jhayward wrote: post #201

corty wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply paying for cattle that wolves have eaten isn't enough. Wolves induce panic in herds, causing them to go over cliffs or trample down fences and cross busy roads, causing accidents. In Germany this isn't currently paid for by the state, because the law doesn't say so, the causality is hard to prove (basically you need a piece of flesh with a wolve's dental pattern) and the farmer is often first in line and goes…

> Also, grazing cattle outside is desirable for better land use (usually grassland isn't good for much else) and keeping the current state of ecosystems (without grazing, bushes and trees will take over) This is complete nonsense. Cattle grazing has been devastating North American habitat for a couple of centuries, and current BLM practices just continue the same abuse. The Texas Hill country is badly damaged from ov…

well, yes, Germany used to be all forrests, around 1BCE. Since then, people changed all kinds of habitats, often in a very radical way (burning and razing down the forest, lots of towns ending in -roth because of that). Nowadays, conservation aims mostly for the status quo, not for 1BCE.

It might be different in North America, it might not. I'm not really convinced that there should be much of a difference just because it happened over the last few centuries instead of millenia ago. Just preserve some small parts of the previous ecosystem, ignore the rest. The whole planet has been terraformed already anyways, undoing human presence is pointless to try...