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Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

npr.org

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Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#11

Post by gbrown »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators.

I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to:

1. Destroy the environment for their convenience

2. Be indemnified by the government for their inability to run an environmentally compatible business

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#12

Post by pcmaffey »

Grakel wrote: post #3

Hope they continue to do well, and are added to a limited hunting season in my state, creating a balanced population and a new game animal.

I can't fathom how people enjoy killing for sport (for food, sure, but solely for pleasure?). That must be some kind of pathology?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#13

Post by [deleted] »

neaden wrote: post #6
shadowgovt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be wealth redistribution, which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to.

The federal government gives farmers a lot of different subsidies already. If we can pay someone to not grow corn, we can pay them for a cow that got killed by a wolf.

[deleted]

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#14

Post by grumple »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Wolves do relatively little predation of livestock.

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/HSUS-...

I’ve also seen it said that wolf populations do two positive things for livestock: keep grazing wildlife to manageable levels (so that fields are replenished for livestock) and outcompete coyotes, who are more likely to prey on livestock than wolves.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#15

Post by pkulak »

shadowgovt wrote: post #4
Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

That would be wealth redistribution, which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to.

Everyone is fine when it's distributed to them; half the population will not tolerate it distributed elsewhere. Which means that the only kind of redistribution that's politically feasible is the kind that ends at about half the population. So this plan to pay farmers would likely have broad support.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#16

Post by dboreham »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed

Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacted by wolf activity is moot.

[1] https://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-makes...

[2] http://liv.mt.gov/Attached-Agency-Boards/Livestock-Loss-Boar...

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#17

Post by 1-more »

ainiriand wrote: post #8
Grakel wrote: post #3

Hope they continue to do well, and are added to a limited hunting season in my state, creating a balanced population and a new game animal.

Why your first reaction to the recovery of this species (that your own hunter breed almost completely erased), is to think about them as moving targets? Can't you find something more productive to do than to shoot innocent animals?

Eh, a hunter spends hours or days to kill one animal reasonably quickly. A farm slaughters thousands of animals after raising them in absolutely cruel conditions. If I had the goal to make animals suffer fewer creature-hours of pain then faced with the choice to either ban hunting or ban livestock, I'd go with livestock.

However if you're vegetarian, vegan, or raise your own livestock then I salute you as having a consistent stance on the issue.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#18

Post by dboreham »

shadowgovt wrote: post #4
Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

That would be wealth redistribution, which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to.

> which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to

Presumably this is a joke?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#19

Post by MikeKusold »

gbrown wrote: post #11
Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Because the alternative is to say that ranchers need to protect their livestock from wildlife, and then wolves end up back on the ESL.
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