Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List • Hacker News Board

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#141

Post by dev_tty01 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:17 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #127

Filligree wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

Is there a citation for a single attack on a human? I'd looked before, some years back, and was unable to find any.

It happens. They are predators and we are relatively defenseless. Given enough motivation and circumstances, it will happen. Not an argument to destroy them, but we should base discussions on reality.

"The first fatal attack in the 21st century occurred on November 8, 2005, when a young man was killed by wolves that had been habituated to people in Points North Landing, Saskatchewan, Canada[46] while on March 8, 2010, a young woman was killed while jogging near Chignik, Alaska."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_attack

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#142

Post by mbostleman » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:18 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #132

From NPR: "After more than 45 years as a listed species, the gray wolf has exceeded all conservation goals for recovery," said Interior Secretary David Bernhardt And who is this Secretary judging biological metrics? A former coal and oil industry lobbyist and lawyer, no biological training. He was on the board at CESAR, which is a purportedly "scientific" organization that takes huge donations from fossil fuel and co…

That's a pretty ad hominum argument. Do you have anything to offer regarding the facts? If you think the gray wolf has not exceeded all conservation goals for recovery, what are the reasons?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#143

Post by chmod600 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #58

shadowgovt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be wealth redistribution, which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to.

And weirdly enough, frequently ones that receive the largest proportion of it are the ones most against it. Both at the federal level, where generally the money is redistributed from the coasts to the "heartland", to at the local level where the cities heavily support the rural schools, roads, and general infrastructure. Even semi-private industries like telcom services are heavily funded through things like the univ…

Let's assume that everything has a price, including one's adherance to a political philosophy.

Then isn't is obvious that people with a political philosophy of limited government would demand a higher payout to abandon the idea of limited government? And that people who favor government involvement would go along with government involvement even if they end up footing the bill?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#144

Post by twothamendment » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

NewOrderNow wrote: post #108

NewOrderNow wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give me free food

Commenter told me to "grow a fucking vegetable" but I can't because a wolf keeps eating it. So now I have to murder a wolf or my family starves. See how this (aka life) works?

Yes, that is how life works.

I have a fence around my garden/orchard. It is tall enough to keep the deer out, electrified to keep the bears out, netted to keep the birds out - but ground squirrels leave me no choice but to eliminate them from the area.

If they would stay away, I wouldn't have to "murder" them. At least they don't go to waste, there are plenty of hungry things out there to move them up the food chain!

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#145

Post by hiimtroymclure » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

pcmaffey wrote: post #12

Grakel wrote: post #3

Hope they continue to do well, and are added to a limited hunting season in my state, creating a balanced population and a new game animal.

I can't fathom how people enjoy killing for sport (for food, sure, but solely for pleasure?). That must be some kind of pathology?

Ive been hunting my whole life. I've still yet to encounter someone who did it for the 'killing'. It's about fresh food, cultural traditions, and conservation. The modern hunter does more for the environment than most who sit behind a computer all day. You should take a intro course on hunting and understanding the carrying capacity of an environment impacts how tags are issued.

Sidenote => I also love to fish. I find it odd how much flak hunting gets over fishing. I guess people feel a stronger bond to an animal vs a tuna.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#146

Post by spiderfarmer » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #16

Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacte…

Here in the Netherlands we also pay farmers for killed livestock. And nobody is happy with the situation we're in now. Not the farmers, not the public, not the sheep and not even the environmentalists. Public support for wolves is growing, but only among people who don't know about the problems they cause.

One of the main reason farmers hate wolves is because it's madness. A wolf kills 14 sheep in one night and only eats one, partly. That doesn't make it a very sympathetic animal.

The Netherlands is very densely populated. Everyone was doing fine without the wolf. Now a couple of environmentalists use public money to try to reintroduce wolves in habitat that isn't able to support them. They got subsidies based on reports that promised no livestock would be harmed. Wolves would just limit themselves automagically to wildlife when there is enough wildlife to support them. This claim is demonstrably false. It's fraud.

On top of that, the environmentalist arrogantly call everyone who doesn't love the wolf stupid, uninformed bigots.

Like that helps.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#147

Post by deedub » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

yupyup54133 wrote: post #60

snowwrestler wrote: post #56

It's arguable that, based on continuously declining trends in wild species, wild areas, and biodiversity, we should reverse our 19th-century policy default and apply blanket protection to all wild species. If we find compelling reasons they should be culled or impacted, then that can be done with specific regulation or legislation. We've gone so far down in wild species and areas, and these are things that we absolut…

Unless you are for the reintroduction of wolves where you live your opinion on this is selfish. Too many wealthy urbanites and subutbanites have a not-in-my-backyard mentality about wolves.

I know you're being downvoted, but I agree with you. People from other areas seem have very strong opinions but have never actually seen wolves in the wild and will most likely never have wolves in their areas. Honestly, it is also is becoming the same discussion with brown bears where I live. I question how educated they are in wild life management.

In Idaho a wolf tag is 11.50 and you can legally harvest 15 wolves a year. You can even get wolf bounties of up to $1,000 per wolf in some areas, $500 in any area! You do have to be a member of the foundation for wildlife management, though. Idaho Department of Fish and Game is partially funding these bounties.

So, you have online folks (urbanites and suburbanites you mentioned, I assume) fighting to keep them on the endangered species list. All the while you have state government departments that 100% exist to manage wildlife paying hunters to harvest them. What a contrast.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#148

Post by spiderfarmer » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #126

Filligree wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

"Solutions" like this are how we destroyed Yellowstone the first time, and why deer now run rampant all over the US, literally eroding forests from excessive grazing. A naive assumption about a complex system has knock-on effects that destroy the entire ecosystem.

You're making a naive assumption based on one popular Facebook video.

The wolves didn't make any difference to the deer population.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#149

Post by throwaway2048 » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

hashtagmarkup wrote: post #110

yupyup54133 wrote: post #50

Here in Wisconsin the wolf argument is a wealthy vs poor issue. Specifically, it is mostly the southern wealthy urbanites and suburbanites dictating to the poorer northern half of the state that they must put up with the re-introduction of wolves. It would be much less of an issue if the wolves were also introduced into the county forests and state parks in the southern half of the state where the wealthy urbanites a…

The median household income of milwaukee county is less than the median household income of nearly every single county in the northern half of the state, and as you go further north, the median household income goes higher. What are you talking about?

Certain groups paint themselves as poor victims no matter what the reality of the situation is.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#150

Post by gcheong » Fri, Oct 30, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

hiimtroymclure wrote: post #136

HappySweeney wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't that the point? The elk were eating everything down to the nubs.

You could also open up more elk tags. Plenty of hunters more than happy to take down a bull and have a packed freezer. Lottery systems to pull tags are not easy, especially for out of state folks.

The difference is that wolves tend to take the weaker members of the herds which strengthens the herd overall, but hunters tend to focus on the stronger members.