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Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

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Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#81

Post by StillBored »

shadowgovt wrote: post #32
dboreham wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which a critical mass of Americans are pathologically opposed to Presumably this is a joke?

it is not. https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/job...

That link isn't directly about wealth distribution, more about how its distributed.

And given my own biases, I'm not surprised about the results. The Works Progress Administration built a lot of infrastructure we still depend on today with unemployed people. Until we get to the point where all our roads, bridges, airports, etc are looking as good as the ones you find in other parts of the world, underpaying healthy people to run asphalt machines for 20 hours a week (or whatever), or provide childcare, gives us a return on the basic societal need to keep people from starving.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#82

Post by BurningFrog »

dboreham wrote: post #16
Ericson2314 wrote: post #2

Yeah this is a bit premature. I dunno why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed (it's pretty rare) and everyone goes home happy? Apex predator reintroduction is a good litmus test for how much conservation we can stomach, so I think it's important that we get this right.

> why we don't just pay the ranchers for livestock killed Ah ha. A HN thread close to home (I live within earshot of wolves in Montana). So...we do [1], [2]. Ranchers (generalizing, of course) just don't like wolves. It's a really deep cultural thing. So if you as president want to take some step that will cause a bunch of folks in ranching areas to high five, you'd delist wolves. That they may not in fact be impacte…

If someone was killing my pets, while paying me reasonable compensation, I would also be pissed off at the arrangement.

Some things money can't buy.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#83

Post by allannienhuis »

monkeybutton wrote: post #31
gbrown wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

If it's such a rare occurrence, is there an opportunity for insurance companies to provide solutions instead of the government?

I don't think so - because the ranchers would still bear all of the costs of the problem of having wolves exist. Insurance doesn't transfer costs to the whole group that benefits from the existence of wolves. Having the costs come from the public purse seems like a good way to do that fairly. Although in the case of wolves, it seems like politics seem to play as much or more of a role than fairness.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#84

Post by gambiting »

wbl wrote: post #72
jacurtis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that farmers (or anyone else) actually do have a right to protect/defend their property (livestock are property). So when the government says that you can't protect your property if the thing killing it is a wolf, then farmers get very frustrated because they feel like their freedom/rights have been controlled or taken away from the government. To put the farmer's perspective another way: Everyone has…

That's what fences are for

I think you absolutely, grossly underestimate what kinds of areas we're talking about. Not to mention that fences then stop movement of other animals(also including wolves) which has massive impacts on ecosystems. Also, if you ever had a dog, you know that no kind of fence will stop a sufficiently determined dog unless you make it out of solid metal and 10ft tall(and even then my dog would just dig under it, so be prepared to have to bury it few feet under the ground too).

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#85

Post by redisman »

snowwrestler wrote: post #56

It's arguable that, based on continuously declining trends in wild species, wild areas, and biodiversity, we should reverse our 19th-century policy default and apply blanket protection to all wild species. If we find compelling reasons they should be culled or impacted, then that can be done with specific regulation or legislation. We've gone so far down in wild species and areas, and these are things that we absolut…

> to all wild species

To all native wild species. Very big difference. This combined with a larger budget to fight invasive species and plants would be amazing.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#86

Post by rtkwe »

wbl wrote: post #72
jacurtis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that farmers (or anyone else) actually do have a right to protect/defend their property (livestock are property). So when the government says that you can't protect your property if the thing killing it is a wolf, then farmers get very frustrated because they feel like their freedom/rights have been controlled or taken away from the government. To put the farmer's perspective another way: Everyone has…

That's what fences are for

Large fences big enough to keep wolves out have a lot of other knock on effects and are very expensive. Barbed wire is extremely cheap and is enough to generally contain grazing livestock contained but a lot of wildlife can freely move around them meaning their habitat doesn't get cut up and cut off from itself. A tall fence buried deep enough to keep wolves from digging under would be very expensive.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#87

Post by chrisco255 »

wbl wrote: post #72
jacurtis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that farmers (or anyone else) actually do have a right to protect/defend their property (livestock are property). So when the government says that you can't protect your property if the thing killing it is a wolf, then farmers get very frustrated because they feel like their freedom/rights have been controlled or taken away from the government. To put the farmer's perspective another way: Everyone has…

That's what fences are for

Wolves can dig and since ranching in the midwest/northwest requires a lot of acreage, it's difficult to keep a perimeter fence up that's impenetrable by wolves.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#88

Post by Chris2048 »

monkeybutton wrote: post #31
gbrown wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

If it's such a rare occurrence, is there an opportunity for insurance companies to provide solutions instead of the government?

Who pays the premiums?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#89

Post by corty »

shadowgovt wrote: post #40
grumple wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wolves do relatively little predation of livestock. https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/HSUS-... I’ve also seen it said that wolf populations do two positive things for livestock: keep grazing wildlife to manageable levels (so that fields are replenished for livestock) and outcompete coyotes, who are more likely to prey on livestock than wolves.

What effect do wolves have on wild hog population?

In Germany, none. Domesticated animals are easier prey (fenced in, not used to predators), and hogs are breeding like a plague, it would take unacceptable amounts of wolves to make a noticable dent.
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