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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

811–820 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#811

I'm reading a lot of comments here saying that CoCs are categorically bad. Which absolutely isn't what Jeremy is saying in this post, in fact he says just the opposite. CoCs help prevent and deal with incidents of racism, sexism, homophobia, threats of violence, etc. Those aren't things I, and presumably you, don't want at conferences. This was an example of CoC being poorly implemented in several ways; that does not…

>I'm reading a lot of comments here saying that CoCs are categorically bad. Which absolutely isn't what Jeremy is saying in this post, in fact he says just the opposite.

Him talking about supports a code of conduct was like listening to a shooting victim talking about how they support gun rights. It's like walking into his hospital room, him sitting up, and instantly going into a monologue about how the 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny. It reminds one of the the "Leopards eating faces" meme. If this post sold a code of conduct as a way to fight back against trumped up charges by being able to compare your behavior to stated rules, and expose arbitrariness, I think he might have actually made code of conducts sound like a great thing. Yet instead be defended CoC's by questioning the character of their critics with the line

>the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”).

That's just such a bizarre and weird response given he did literally get cancelled regardless of if he likes it or not and is making a post arguing he's not just "facing consequences". He's like the person in the welfare lineup who thinks everybody around him is a lazy bum.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what lawsuits are for. A few good lawsuit victories would put an end to this.

On what grounds?

Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intentional_infliction_of_em...

Might be a stretch, but would likely survive summary judgment.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#813
> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”)

haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded no due-process is in fact guilty and deserving of punishment. Mine is the unique case of an opaque and capricious CoC process being applied unjustly.'

I find it funny that this fellow personally experienced the injustice of being caught up in an unfair CoC enforcement process run by some petty tyrants†, but refuses to believe that this may happen to other people, that his case may not be a wild aberration but a predictable norm, given the system and culture. I wonder what it would it take for Jeremy to say "Maybe this process has fundamental problems. Maybe a lot of the other people who have been burned by this have also been treated unfairly."

If someone can keep the faith even when they personally experience the injustice of a system like this, I don't what would change their mind.

† according to his account. As jpeloquin notes ITT, little is known to us third parties about the facts of the case.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#814
>In short, many parts of the document, including this one, assume guilt, and do not show any consideration for the accused. The potential for misuse and weaponization of such a code is of concern.

That seems to be what most people have been saying since day 1.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#815
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, and you should be careful of not becoming too cynical about it, I think there are people that want to build their ego with fighting sexism and racism through penalizing others. And if there isn't anything obvious to be found, smaller and smaller infractions are used as an excuse to exclude other people. They want to play cop on the internet.

> And if there isn't anything obvious to be found, smaller and smaller infractions are used as an excuse to exclude other people. They want to play cop on the internet. This sounds terrible and I guess I'll have to modify our CoC to deal with it when it occurs. OTOH, we've had frequent cases of sexual harassment (primarily men hitting on women at events) and a CoC has been extremely useful in dealing with those situa…

> OTOH, we've had frequent cases of sexual harassment (primarily men hitting on women at events) and a CoC has been extremely useful in dealing with those situations.

This seems like a pretty reasonable use for a CoC in my view--flirting isn't ubiquitously taboo (unlike racism, trolling, or overt sexual harassment) nor should it be, but it's understandable that a community would prefer to just prohibit it outright and set that expectation clearly up front.

CoCs should focus narrowly on this kind of thing (of course, without giving the impression that these are the only offenses that a person might be kicked out for), and proponents of CoCs should talk about this. Instead, much of this thread is talking about racist trolling, as though CoCs are necessary or sufficient for dissuading a racist troll (everyone understands racism is unacceptable; if you're motivated to cross that line anyway, a CoC isn't going to deter you).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#816
post #757
post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I have never seen it happen in my 10 years in open source.

If you've never seen racist trolling on GitHub, maybe it's because you're not looking rather than that it doesn't happen The laziest of Google searches quickly found people being racist on GitHub (... to a GitHub employee! With their own, non anonymous accounts!): https://www.tinykat.cafe/on-all-that-fuckery (This incident also made it to hn iirc, but maybe you didn't read it that day)

To be fair, the article in question is not about a software project, it's about an individual who is using github as a food blog being trolled using the github collaboration features. It's an example of horrible online behavior, but I don't think it's relevant to OSS communities.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#817
post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you expand on this, explain the connection? In particular, why the former (belief) would influence the latter (behavior)? It's not universally the case, to be sure. If you voice your belief that women are intellectually inferior, you will likely make them feel excluded. In general, there is a relationship between a person's beliefs and behaviors which I regard as self-evident. > Edit: answer to your second ques…

> People tend to act in accordance with their beliefs. Professionals tend to act professionally. Just because most people are horny & sexual doesn't mean that they need to hump each other at work or at conferences. I expect professional behavior regardless of your personal beliefs. Now, personally I'd prefer people to also look professional (fully clothed, no religious symbols, ...) so I wouldn't necessarily disagree…

I think we're talking past each other. Would you be able to answer any of the questions I posed earlier?

> but they're usually (as evidenced by this very OP) applied inconsistently, politically

Do you have the impression OP was a political disagreement?

> Professionals tend to act professionally.

Yes, but people aren't robots. These are still human interactions between people. You develop personal relationships at conferences, or fail to. People with a hostile attitude toward minoritized groups, whether explicitly expressed or not, are going to make these people feel less welcome, and as a result, they will have a worse outcome at the conference.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#818

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

It's also possible that the chuckler thought the guy was joking. Not as crazy as it sounds - people joke about being tired/sleep-deprived, unmotivated, and (more to the point) various negative emotional states all the time in a business environment. Others laugh because they've been there. Perhaps all the more so if you phrase it in an unexpectedly precise, analytical way using big words. If someone says "Right now I would prefer a silica-rich intertidal environment in a tropical latitude" I would probably laugh. That's a trivial example but you get the idea.

Not saying "This is how it is," but rather "It's possible." Also keep in mind that we're only getting (ironically) one side of it/one person's experience with this blog post, and will likely never know what was in the mind of the one who chuckled.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#819
post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why should rules exist? We should just operate on intuitive feelings of what is or isn't acceptable all the time." Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In fact, you can easily read this post as a pro-COC argument. After all, the author is able to make a really strong case that he didn't really infringe on any part of the COC, and that the COC was poorly construc…

> Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Besides the reams of examples of CoC's being abused and arbitrarily enforced like the one in the attached article you mean? I've never even heard of a CoC being applied in any way except a petty, bureaucratic way.

How about every time dang replies "Please don't do this" and links to the HN rules? Or bans repeat offenders?

You don't hear about the system working right because it's inherently non-controversial.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#820

> I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”) haha... 'Everyone else who gets accused of some transgression and is afforded…

He still isn't ready to believe that this whole movement that accompanies CoCs is pushed for malicious purposes by twisted power hungry people. That would require a massive loss of innocence and a reckoning about the nature of the world that only comes, reluctantly, from repeated exposure to and reflection on the same problem.

I have seen many people in similar situations that just completely roll over in a prey response and just bow down to these people. So at least the author has that spark of dignity where he's willing to stand up for himself.

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