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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#461

Post by arc-in-space »

ckiA4U61 wrote: post #398
tptacek wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone asked on Twitter what, if any, flavor bay leaves had. I repeated advice I'd heard: supermarket bay leaves are bad, so just add a lot of them. Then I acted on another piece of advice: if you want to know what bay leaves taste like, steep them in water and taste the water. I did. Bay leaves are disgusting. Nobody should add more of them to anything.

What you're saying is true, but consider this also: America's Test Kitchen made identical versions of a bunch of recipes with identical ingredients on identical equipment simultaneously, and with no exceptions, the tasting panel preferred the ones containing bay leaves, but interestingly, they couldn't state exactly why.

This here is more interesting than everything else in the thread. IIRC ATK is a TV show so I presume the experiment wasnt particularly rigorous, but it's still neat to learn.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#462

Post by [deleted] »

radmuzom wrote: post #175
chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

Agree. I wonder what would the reaction be if Joel Grus was a woman.

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#463

Post by raxxorrax »

nl wrote: post #289
barumi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful The piece is not balanced of thoughtful. The piece is crafted to present the case in a way that's immune or resilient to typical and expectable attacks. It underlined the core failings of the concept behind a CoC, and it provides a concrete example of how people use CoCs as an oppression tool that's leveraged to manipulate and condition groups to follow the…

> This is a CoC working exactly as it's supposed to work. By design. > There is absolutely no other use for a CoC. This is precisely what they were created for. > There is absolutely no other use for a CoC. This is precisely what they were created for. This is no accident or mistake. I run groups that use a CoC and I assure you that they aren't supposed to work like this, weren't created for this and it is a mistake…

Frankly, and you should be careful of not becoming too cynical about it, I think there are people that want to build their ego with fighting sexism and racism through penalizing others. And if there isn't anything obvious to be found, smaller and smaller infractions are used as an excuse to exclude other people. They want to play cop on the internet.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#464

Post by ksec »

ekianjo wrote: post #80
ahelwer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

> I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. You are missing an important point though: with machine learning, you can make sure all social media will be optimized naturally to put the maximum amount of people's hair on fire, all the time. Outrage create clicks, replies, and with recommendations engines it's served t…

Even without Social Media, people will continue to view and subscribe to Youtube channels that fits their views. It is really the "Internet" as a whole, or the always connected tech. Not simply Social Media.

For example there are far greater amount of information flowing through Instant Messenger that is not accounted for.

I have now come to the conclusion it wasn't Social Media or Internet that divided the world. They act as an amplifier or solidify the viewer views. Simply because they spent more time on these media than ever before. So in reality, Social Media isn't really to blame, but it is currently a good use for politicians and other Press to target.

My new question for myself is, Before the amplifier or solidifier comes in, How did one get their view in the first place? What shapes it?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#465

Post by netsharc »

tptacek wrote: post #258
googthrowaway42 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions. This is what intelligent people do. They recognize patterns and extrapolate. At this point the vast majority of people have experienced variations of what this guy has gone through. In my own experience I have seen the exact same pattern of behavior in a slack community set up for my town. > This is one of those posts wh…

Consult the search bar below to disabuse yourself of the notion that "intelligent people" have had any trouble discussing their qualms about codes of conduct until now.

I've been scrolling through the comments, and this whole place seems like a mad house. Everyone's got their own theory on what's "Destroying society/America/the world/the Internet" and are foaming in the mouth convinced that their pet idea is the right one...

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#466

Post by cik »

There was a time when critical thinking, and fact-based arguments while holding differences of opinions were valued. We're now in a period of time where in several countries the tone of communication, contents of thought, and behaviour are all policed.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#467

Post by eisbaar »

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

It has nothing to do with social media. It is the leftist agenda infiltrating everything.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#468

Post by ScottBurson »

tptacek wrote: post #381
defen wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think we should generalize more, beyond codes of conduct: If you are building an adjudication process for resolving non-criminal personal conflicts (whether that be a Code of Conduct, an HR department, a Title IX proceeding, a professional organization, or something else), you should take a look at Anglo-derived common law and the safeguards against abuse that have been evolved over the centuries. That…

Your premise is that, rather than free association, every group of people owes a kind of due process to everyone else, presumptive of their right to associate. Sorry, I disagree: people can decide they don't want to associate with you or me for reasons we don't find justifiable. I can throw a party and not invite you simply for writing this comment; I can start a project and not allow you to contribute. You can relat…

It's not "every group of people" -- it's organizations that invite the participation of the public, or at least of others they don't know well, as long as they adhere to the mores of the community.

More importantly, I take the parent's point to be, not that such an organization "owes" anything to anyone, but simply that anyone formalizing a Code of Conduct and a committee to enforce it would do well to understand why the protections of due process exist. If their intention is truly to create a safe space for interaction, setting up a process that can be easily abused is not going to help with that.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#469

Post by trymas »

Youtube's algorithm, like it does all the time these days, suggested to watch a random 5 year old video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dNbWGaaxWM (more relevant parts to the article begin from ~5:00, but it's worth watching everything)

I know Slavoj is a polarizing figure, but somehow that video nailed it for me, and IMHO it fits the article.

From my point of view I find it extremely ridiculous that this "cancelling" was decided without the supposed victim's involvement by some third party:

> Joel (who I greatly respect, and consider an asset to the data science community) was not involved in NumFOCUS’s action, was not told about it, and did not support it.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#470

Post by josefx »

robbyoconnor wrote: post #133
ben0x539 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hilarious is that Joel Grus didn't care It's probably not the case here, but imo it's a feature of CoCs that they protect people who can't publicly object themselves for whatever reason. Like, for an extreme example, if I know I'm gonna get harassed if I make noise about someone's genuinely harmful behavior, then it's good that I can publicly be like "oh no it's fine don't worry" and there's still a process to…

Except it wasn't harassment -- guess what? People can say you're wrong. Check your ego at the door if you give a public talk. They shouldn't say "he's a fucking idiot" but saying "I feel that got X,Y, and Z wrong and here's why:" is not a fucking CoC violation. I support codes of conduct and always will but this is where things went topsy-turvy, do not try to roll your own and try to be specific.

> People can say you're wrong. Check your ego at the door if you give a public talk.

There are probably tons of lectures on how to disagree with someone while phrasing it neutrally. For example "you are wrong" vs. "I disagree with your point" . I couldn't imagine using such a style constantly without slipping up every now and then but it is probably double plus good in an environment that forces you to walk on eggshells.

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