NumFOCUS is wrong and this action reflects poorly on them.
I Violated a Code of Conduct
121–130 of 971 posts
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#122I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. I expected this post to be a rant against codes of conduct and instead it wound up leaving me wondering if NumFOCUS and JupyterCon was in the wrong here...this guy offered criticism and that is NOT a fucking violation of ANY CoC -- if you can't handle criticism, don't make public statements. The hilarious is that J…
> The hilarious is that Joel Grus didn't care
It's probably not the case here, but imo it's a feature of CoCs that they protect people who can't publicly object themselves for whatever reason.
Like, for an extreme example, if I know I'm gonna get harassed if I make noise about someone's genuinely harmful behavior, then it's good that I can publicly be like "oh no it's fine don't worry" and there's still a process to stop them from harming more people.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#123Stuff like this is what gives CoCs a bad rep, although when implemented well, they can be hugely beneficial to communities.
> when implemented well, they can be hugely beneficial to communities.
Does anyone have them implemented well? CoC enforcement is punishment-based social structure and like other such structures (e.g. law enforcement) it is a terrible weapon that requires proper counterbalances to not end as a tool of oppressive tyranny.
Society developed such counterbalances for thousands of years so we ended with current rights of accused for fair trial. Unfortunately people who reinvent these social wheels (as CoC) often reinvent them poorly, with much emphasis on punishment and minimal emphasis on rights of accused.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#124We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…
Be aware that your comment unfortunately contributes to the current division. It's subtle, and you may not be aware of it, but the tone you use, the words "rotten" and "madness", the emphasis on " end other people" - they have the pathos and call to action of an "us vs them" atmosphere. What is destroying society is anger, emotion, and tribalism. Our best hope of saving it is deliberation, consideration, and the drea…
The problem isn't strong views. It's weak people.
There is a time and a place to coddle people. There is _also_ a time and a place for people's whose ideas are garbage to be declared as such and thrown into the bin.
There was a time when people could discuss ideas without having those ideas be internalized within an individual. It is entire possible to attack an idea or way of thinking to break it down and see how it works without involving a single person.
If you want to have constructive dialog about these kinds of things, people being "offended" will only shut down conversation instead of fostering it. Thicken up your skin, decouple yourself from these ideas, and talk about them like adults.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#125We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…
Watch "the social dilemma" Political correctness is killing this country, inside out. The media and big-tech are now the big brothers. The network did not bring people together, it drove us apart. Even this post will be downvoted, because it does not sound "kind and nice", because it complained about big-media-tech's censorship, thus it must be censored at HN
There is a lot of division over political correctness, but I would not suggest that it is the cause, any more than a cough is the cause of a cold. There is something that is driving us apart on many, many issues, and political correctness just happens to be one of the more prominent ones.
And HN is pretty friendly to discussion of big-media-tech censorship in general. It's when a post veers too far into conspiracy or persecution territory that downvotes flow in.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#126Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…
I disagree with you completely. Presentations are a public dialogue about topics; that's literally their purpose. By presenting on a topic, you are putting your ideas and viewpoints into the public sphere for discussion, sharing, critique, criticism and further development.
Hiding one side of that conversation makes no sense whatsoever. You can disagree respectfully with someone in public. That's pretty fundamental to progressing the dialogue. Hiding it means people don't then get to evaluate opposing viewpoints and understand the relative merits of each.
My colleagues and I disagree about our work - in public, in front of each other - all the time. The trick is to do it politely and respectfully, which is overwhelmingly the case. This is how we all learn from each other and develop a higher overall standard of output.
And all that considered, in this particular case why not just ask the original presenter how they feel about it? Surely that is the authoritive answer to whether there's even an issue here.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
What, exactly, do your personal feelings and values have to do with the question of whether Jeremy was "a dick" to Joel? Isn't that between Jeremy and Joel? Joel didn't have a problem with Jeremy's talk. Why do you think you know better than Joel whether it was appropriate to criticize Joel in the way that Jeremy did? Your belief that, whatever Joel may have thought, your perspective is the one of "regular human empa…
I disagree in principle. The "victim" doesn't have to be offended for the behaviour to potentially be inappropriate. Behaviour has second order effects beyond the direct "victim" (e.g. people watch and think its ok, so more people do it, and it becomes "normal"). Its also entirely possible for the victim to be hurt, without him admitting it for a variety of reasons (E.g. social pressure, not wanting to be seen as wea…
This is a very good point. I worked with a group (when we were a very small team at a startup) where we would say terrible things about each others code/ideas more or less for fun, as we had a long-running relationship and understood that everyone respected everyone else.
Once we were in a bigger company, we had to stop talking like that (at least in venues where others could hear us) as the perception that we were "ripping each other apart" could be perceived as very threatening to people who didn't have that rapport nor the understanding of the background. The perception would be that we were mean people who might turn on them at any moment.
The argument that "oh, X can both dish it out and take it (with respect to criticism from Y)" often ignores the fact that somewhere, "Z" is quietly watching this interaction and deciding that they don't want to participate in this apparently hostile environment.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…
To be fair, the draft over a war was what really drove people apart in the 60's/70's. The youth of the country didn't want to die face down in the mud in a god forsaken jungle in vietnam to support the anti-communist narrative spouted by our political leaders. In 2020, we no longer use the draft. What's our excuse for being so polarized?
Polarization wins elections and sells newspapers. It generates pageviews and builds careers of professional controversists.
Besides, it's not just an American phenomenon. 68/69 were full of upheaval in the West as the postwar culture clash came to a head.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#129Ironic considering the author supports the same code for rebuking other people talking in ways he/she doesn't approve. Free speech is an either or, the moment you introduce conditions, be prepared for that to be used against you one day. Sad part is that the author still doesn't seem to understand this fact. And I understand that free speech guarantees in the law are concerning the government. But I believe private c…
Basic principles of free expression are fine, as is conducting yourself in an expected manner at a private gathering. Which is why the author, very correctly, does not throw out the code of conduct wholesale which would be a giant strawman.
The issue here is absolute mistreatment of the person in question and horrible leadership on behalf of the people who organise this conference.
Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct
#130[deleted]