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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#241

Post by JamesBarney »

LeonB wrote: post #38
tptacek wrote: post #7

This is one of those posts where the title is going to trigger a lot of unproductive subthreads, but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful (and links to Valerie Aurora's excellent code-of-conduct training deck). The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions. Here, I think the story is pretty much just: people screw up, and if your project has a code of…

agreed. it deserves a response of "this is true, code of conducts need to be done thoughtfully and well" but can expect a response of "this proves babies should be discarded with bath water"

If the U.S. accidentally bombs a civilian caravan when trying to bomb terrorists isn't the critique "we should stop trying to bomb terrorists" equally as valid as "we should be more careful where we drop bombs".

The article explicitly argues CoC's should be done better, but it's also a story of collateral damage. The author might believe these issues are infrequent and a non-issue but not all the readers share this belief and I don't think there is anything wrong with that reaction.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#242

Post by googthrowaway42 »

tptacek wrote: post #7

This is one of those posts where the title is going to trigger a lot of unproductive subthreads, but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful (and links to Valerie Aurora's excellent code-of-conduct training deck). The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions. Here, I think the story is pretty much just: people screw up, and if your project has a code of…

> The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions.

This is what intelligent people do. They recognize patterns and extrapolate. At this point the vast majority of people have experienced variations of what this guy has gone through.

In my own experience I have seen the exact same pattern of behavior in a slack community set up for my town.

> This is one of those posts where the title is going to trigger a lot of unproductive subthreads,

They seem quite productive to me. This sort of pathological behavior is increasingly common and finally people are willing and able to talk about it in public.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#243

Post by ben0x539 »

briandear wrote: post #233
ben0x539 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't understand human beings as emotional creatures, how can you manage them rationally?

Well, professionals should be expected to act professionally and not emotionally.

Professionals should act professionally, but it is not rational to ignore that human beings are subject to emotions. Taking emotions into account is necessary to maintain an environment where emotions don't get in the way.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#244

Post by barumi »

tptacek wrote: post #231
barumi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful The piece is not balanced of thoughtful. The piece is crafted to present the case in a way that's immune or resilient to typical and expectable attacks. It underlined the core failings of the concept behind a CoC, and it provides a concrete example of how people use CoCs as an oppression tool that's leveraged to manipulate and condition groups to follow the…

Well, that is a take. It feels like it must be exhausting to have that take, and I certainly don't share it, but I acknowledge that it is one.

It is not a take. It's an objective description of what a CoC is and how it is designed to be used. There is no way around it. At all. I'm surprised you feel the need to turn a blind eye to this fact.

Let's put it differently: without it's oppressive and persecutory function, what's the point of a CoC? To make it even simpler to you, what do you expect if someone in a community is deemed in direct violation of a CoC?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#245

Post by giardini »

newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

This is what lawsuits are for. A few good lawsuit victories would put an end to this.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#246

Post by refulgentis »

btilly wrote: post #219
refulgentis wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It, seemingly, isn't inevitable - I can count on one, _maybe_ two hands the number of unfair incidents I've heard since I started hearing people trumpeting the dark side view that 100% absolutely all power is put into service of evil, always.

Most people who are targeted aren't going to go telling the internet about it. And people who curb their behavior unreasonably out of fear aren't going to advertise that either. What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg of what really happens.

I'm taking umbrage with the "But this kind of thing becomes inevitable" part

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#247

Post by [deleted] »

dx87 wrote: post #144
ahelwer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

You're right, I was listening to a long podcast that covered parts of the 60s and 70s, and the same things were going on back then, they just didn't have "social media" so people don't remember. Rioting in cities over civil rights issues, "woke" college students creating oppression hierarchies that decided who was right when someone was offended, and the DNC rigging the presidential primaries which resulted in Nixon…

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#248

Post by [deleted] »

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#249

Post by barumi »

gwbas1c wrote: post #232
barumi wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using CoC's to backstab people is not going to end well. But that's their only usecase, isn't it? CoCs are just a convenient document aimed at helping out Cardinal Richelieus finding ways to hang you under the guise of breaking acceptable conduct. I mean, CoCs aren't aimed at changing people and make everyone nice. CoCs are aimed at providing a basis to persecute those who arguably don't comply with a given notion…

No, CoCs are meant to clearly state that bigotry is unacceptable. If you don't understand why it's necessary at times to clearly state what bigotry is, and why it's unacceptable, than you need to learn a bit more about diversity topics. They (CoC)s shouldn't be used to play power games. It's totally appropriate to call out situations where a CoC is used incorrectly.

> No, CoCs are meant to clearly state that bigotry is unacceptable.

Oh really? This discussion is about someone that was persecuted and punished for violating a CoC. Do you see any bigotry involved in this story?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#250

Post by aestetix »

tptacek wrote: post #7

This is one of those posts where the title is going to trigger a lot of unproductive subthreads, but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful (and links to Valerie Aurora's excellent code-of-conduct training deck). The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions. Here, I think the story is pretty much just: people screw up, and if your project has a code of…

Perhaps you should ask Violet Blue what she thinks of Valerie Aurora's "excellent" training:

http://www.securitybsides.com/w/page/35868077/BSidesSanFranc...

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