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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#671

Post by pseudalopex »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #647
luckylion wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Too little cancel culture? Nonsense, we need more of it"

The important to thing to realize about cancel culture, CoC enforcement, and various efforts like this, is that it's very occasionally about making the world a better place, and very often about people who want power doing everything they can to seize power. Even the "Black Lives Matter" movement is distracted from the goal of making black lives matter with a laundry list of progressive demands like dismantling the "…

The Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation doesn't speak for the Black Lives Matter movement.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#672

Post by bitwize »

fierarul wrote: post #552
bitwize wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, a CoC and a committee to enforce it are now table stakes for an open source project. Part of the reason, I believe, is because companies refuse to commit resources to open source without some assurance that the project will employ best practices to prevent discrimination, harassment, and a hostile work environment, lest the company find itself liable for such. (There's also the "good corporate citizen"…

> And corporate resources dominate open source -- without them we go back to dorm-room side projects of questionable maintenance. How was that saying "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"? Maybe FSF should have rebranded as Liberty not "Libre" software.

That's what free software always meant -- free as in freedom. Stallman is a 1960s lefty, and puts personal freedom at the center of his philosophy. Today's left is... different, and more concerned with score settling, specifically, paying for privileged groups' historical privilege with a purgatory of additional restrictions going forward. Personal freedom for all is not the goal, matter of fact it's inimical to the goal.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#673

Post by everdrive »

Hitton wrote: post #579
ppf wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Have you tried doing that? How do you like being hounded out of your job, and probably your profession, by a braying mob? Edit: I also find it bitterly ironic that the Progressive Bay Area-centric Hacker News is now saying how bad all of this is, after being…

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

>HN users are not monolith.

This is correct. Quite often, a group which is portrayed as hypocritical is not hypocritical at all: rather there are just many opinions within the group, and they conflict with each other. As you've said, the [group] is not monolith.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#674

Post by everdrive »

pseudalopex wrote: post #671
fennecfoxen wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important to thing to realize about cancel culture, CoC enforcement, and various efforts like this, is that it's very occasionally about making the world a better place, and very often about people who want power doing everything they can to seize power. Even the "Black Lives Matter" movement is distracted from the goal of making black lives matter with a laundry list of progressive demands like dismantling the "…

The Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation doesn't speak for the Black Lives Matter movement.

You must admit this is very confusing. Which of those two groups are the good guys? Who does speak for them?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#675

Post by bitwize »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #647
luckylion wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Too little cancel culture? Nonsense, we need more of it"

The important to thing to realize about cancel culture, CoC enforcement, and various efforts like this, is that it's very occasionally about making the world a better place, and very often about people who want power doing everything they can to seize power. Even the "Black Lives Matter" movement is distracted from the goal of making black lives matter with a laundry list of progressive demands like dismantling the "…

> that it's very occasionally about making the world a better place, and very often about people who want power doing everything they can to seize power.

More specifically, by exploiting and weaponizing the good nature of others. This is why they went after geek hobbies specifically: science fiction, open source, comics, cartoons, video games, and tabletop RPGs -- because geeks are sensitive and accommodating, and shouting at them how racist and sexist they are is bound to make them stop and reflect -- leaving them wide open to further attack. Had they chosen to attack pastimes rife with actual racists and sexists -- tailgate parties in rural Georgia, say -- they'd be routed, because racists and sexists don't have the fucks to give about their behavior.

As I've said elsewhere, "SJWs" aren't really geeks. They are more like mentally deranged normies who long to sit at the cool kids' table, but don't stand a chance of ever sitting there, so they take over the geeks' table, because better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#676

Post by caffeine »

I was amused that he didn't want his experience to be used as an example of "cancel culture", when it is EXACTLY that.

Somehow most of my generation has been taught that their feelings must be protected at all costs. In 20 more years this generation will be senior lawmakers and we will be sending people to prison or worse for "transgressions" like OP's.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#677

Post by red_admiral »

wruza wrote: post #515

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people. Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurator…

Damned if you do, damned if you don't in that case.

A lot of the 1st generation open source CoCs were not hypotheticals, but "here's things we wish Richard Stallman would stop doing". As head of GNU/FSF, he had tremendous influence in shaping the culture of open source, and one result of that was that it ended up a lot more male-dominated than other areas of "tech": one figure I've seen was around 2% women in prestigious open-source projects vs. around 20% in programming as a whole.

Open source CoCs started as far as I can tell as a combination of a reaction to specific incidents and to address the general problem that women were [choosing to stay out of the community](https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/10/09/moat/). That link talks about CoCs specifically, but note that her argument is not "and therefore they should be shamed in public" but "and therefore I'm staying out". Hence, 2% vs. 20%.

So yes, CoCs can have downsides - what happened to Jeremy here could well be one of those - but the pre-CoC open source scene had a culture that ended up with 2% women compared to 20% in programming/tech in general. I don't think it's the right solution to simply roll back the change so we're not disadvantaging people like Jeremy any more, and return to disadvantaging people like Alice and Sarah and Rachel and Yasmin.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#678

Post by bitwize »

ghaff wrote: post #634
jcadam wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And corporate resources dominate open source -- without them we go back to dorm-room side projects of questionable maintenance. I imagine the transition from "side project" to "I might as well be working for a MegaCorp with all of this HR-esque CoC nonsense" would be most unpleasant. How many project founders bow out at that point?

Yeah, that transition from a hobby project to a big payout/nice salary/more usage/more resources must really sting. (Obviously it's a big change but I don't think most would consider it a net negative.)

We're moving to a world where we have to deal with unaccountable HR departments and policies like a regular job, but do not get compensated for our contributions like a regular job unless we are already employees of a significant corporate contributor.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#679

Post by athriren »

tptacek wrote: post #344
offbyone wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apropos of nothing related, I want to know: What, exactly, were you confident yet wrong about in regards to bay leaves?

Someone asked on Twitter what, if any, flavor bay leaves had. I repeated advice I'd heard: supermarket bay leaves are bad, so just add a lot of them. Then I acted on another piece of advice: if you want to know what bay leaves taste like, steep them in water and taste the water. I did. Bay leaves are disgusting. Nobody should add more of them to anything.

i should object to this strenuously as someone with mediterranean heritage, but this is absolutely not the bay leaf take i was expecting and i have to admit that astrigency you hate is like the whole point and i would never eat one by itself so i am torn here.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#680

Post by leothecool »

badRNG wrote: post #643
u801e wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "After they told me of the reports and their finding that I had violated the code of conduct, they asked if I had anything to say." That's essentially a Kafka trap [1]. [1] https://lifelessons.co/critical-thinking/kafkatrapping/

That article has to be one of the most bewildering things I've ever read. I have not seen the term "SJW" used so many times in proximity to Orwell and 1984 references before; well, at least not outside of a gamergate board

Denying its a kafka trap only proves that it is.
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