I Violated a Code of Conduct • Hacker News Board

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#131

Post by obviouslynotme » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

762236 wrote: post #49

I stopped reading when he said he's fine with cancel culture: since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences” . No, cancel culture is bullying. Edit: I feel that the author was bullied, or mistreated, so I was primed to be upset when seeing his own dismissal of cancel culture.

That is because he is a real person using his real name. He might have believed in this nonsense and is only now seeing CoCs for what they really are. He might not be comfortable publicly rebelling against the new orthodoxy. These tribunals are no joke.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#132

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

friendlybus wrote: post #28

Using CoC's to backstab people is not going to end well. Using CoC's to institute a heirarchy of 'who can criticize who' is going to be rebelled against. Some people are power hungry and use words to get power. They are exposing themselves in the silliest ways. Pure vanity.

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#133

Post by robbyoconnor » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #122

robbyoconnor wrote: post #101

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. I expected this post to be a rant against codes of conduct and instead it wound up leaving me wondering if NumFOCUS and JupyterCon was in the wrong here...this guy offered criticism and that is NOT a fucking violation of ANY CoC -- if you can't handle criticism, don't make public statements. The hilarious is that J…

> The hilarious is that Joel Grus didn't care It's probably not the case here, but imo it's a feature of CoCs that they protect people who can't publicly object themselves for whatever reason. Like, for an extreme example, if I know I'm gonna get harassed if I make noise about someone's genuinely harmful behavior, then it's good that I can publicly be like "oh no it's fine don't worry" and there's still a process to…

Except it wasn't harassment -- guess what? People can say you're wrong. Check your ego at the door if you give a public talk. They shouldn't say "he's a fucking idiot" but saying "I feel that got X,Y, and Z wrong and here's why:" is not a fucking CoC violation. I support codes of conduct and always will but this is where things went topsy-turvy, do not try to roll your own and try to be specific.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#134

Post by 1_over_n » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:40 AM UTC

It would be intersting to watch all of the other presentations from this confrence. Did any one else, perhaps not as high profile, make any comments which could be agreed as worthy of a CoC violation? What happened?

Jeremy Howard has done a LOT for the machine learning community and the world because he really has democratised machine learning and made it extremely accessible for people. Not just with free lecture videos, but by buiding and releasing tools that continue to give people an on ramp into a complex field.

Jeremy is also relatively high profile, in an "if you know you know" kind of way.

This really seems like a bit of an attempt for the confrence to do something slightly edgy and controversial to boost their own profile.

Edit: i should have said "enabling a whole community to build and release tools for free". Obviously a LOT of people are contributing to fastai so i dont want to take anything away from the community. Jeremy is clearly instrumental to that movement.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#135

Post by seibelj » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:41 AM UTC

At my company I try to foster intellectual debate free of emotion. If you can’t separate ego from ideas, how can you ever improve? So many “brave” people are glass at this point.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#136

Post by austhrow743 » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:41 AM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

Conference talks are marketing that you do to make money.

The tribunals wielding CoCs have the power to hit speakers in the wallet. Outside of violence that's pretty much as much power as you can have over a person.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#137

Post by unnouinceput » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

To author: Jeremy Howard

Please watch Linus talks.

If that's not enough for you to grow some thick skin, go watch Bill Burr and ultimately Donald Trump.

Stop living your life in fear what others think of you. My wife is blaming me because, finally, after more then a decade and a half she started to care less of what neighbors and/or extended family members think of her. For me personally I care only what 3 people think of me and that's her and our kids. Everybody else, parents and siblings included get a mouthful from me and I could not care less if I offended them.I always tell them "My money, my life - who doesn't like me stop interacting with me"

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#138

Post by HenryBemis » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

> I don't like criticism. I was bullied a lot as a kid.

It is sad what happened to you, and/but these are two different things.

Bullying is being applied but a mindless person/group who don't understand what-is-what and are just being mean because they don't know better/they haven't been taught better. Kinda like a kid acting like an ass, just because its parents/teachers never taught them better.

Criticism is a process applied by people with knowledge on the matter that are trying to improve you/something (like a parent who will criticize/assess/judge the actions of their kids to make them become better/greater humans)(great in the meaning of greatness/richness/betterment, not Alexander the 'Great').

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#139

Post by SavageBeast » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

I quietly lower my expectations of people I talk to whenever they bring up any social media "stuff that happens". Twitter and Facebook mainly but I'm not going to leave Instagram out of this either.

I realize there are exceptions. I think "Social Media" is what would happen if we gave every dog on the planet a microphone to bark at every other dog in the world. It would quickly devolve into constant and senseless barking. This is what its come to.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#140

Post by Barrin92 » Thu, Oct 29, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #107

Spivak wrote: post #46

Okay, forget the CoC for a second, can we evaluate this talk with just regular human empathy? Because I think he’s being somewhat of a dick. Like it’s a little rude and not in the best taste. Like it was totally possible to give this talk in a positive manner talking about all the reasons you think notebooks are good and demonstrating the use-cases. * You don’t have to call out or reference the original speaker at al…

If the 'target' is OK with a more-critical, even a hyperbolically- or teasingly- critical tone, why not allow it? Lots of big personalities carry on 'feuds' that are largely acts, to their mutual. The back-and-forth, even with campy insults, creates a framework for understanding the key points and evolution of the disagreement. Using more forceful, even facetiously disrespectful language expands the range of imagery/…

>If the 'target' is OK with a more-critical, even a hyperbolically- or teasingly- critical tone, why not allow it?

if it's between two people who stand on the same level roughly as is in this case and it's all in good fun it's no issue. However in general this is a horrible idea, because someone with outsized influence can bully in ways that the victim will simply have to take if the imbalance is too large.

Imagine Elon Musk gives a talk and absolutely drags someone with awful criticism, the person couldn't stand up against his twitter mob if they tried and would probably defer to keep their sanity even if they're right. Even in literal bullying this is kind of how the victim responds, just pretending it wasn't an issue as to not get bullied even more. So one has to be careful on this one.