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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

551–560 of 674 posts

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have been teaching people about unconscious bias for years without these theatrics.

How well has that worked?

Pretty much every civil rights victory that has been achieved had been done through appeal to universal principles.

People in America really don’t understand what the alternative is like. Academic theater seems workable, or at least harmless at best so long as we’re standing on solid bedrock. But that’s a framework that exists so long as you maintain it. What society really looks like absent this framework is what happened in Iraq after in 2005. The first time people voted, they did so strictly along ethnic lines and then tried to annihilate each other. Or in my home country where we went to war to separate ourselves from people who had the same skin color and same religion, but spoke a different language.

The United States is the most successful multi-ethnic democracy in the world. For example, while Muslim immigrants to the US achieved economic parity within a generation or two, in countries like France they’re facing multi-generational poverty. We are not perfect. While we have successfully integrated (socially and economically) wave after wave of immigrants. We are doing it again right now—income mobility among Hispanic people is similar to white such that within a few generations incomes for these groups converge. Our persistent failure has been our inability to fix the legacy of our shameful history of slavery, segregation, and Indian removal. But nobody else has figured out how to do that either. In countries like the UK, the Black-white income gap is just as large as in the US. The gap in maternal mortality rates is even larger. And in most of the rest of Europe, it’s not even legal to keep statistics about these disparities.

Maybe some professors have figured out a better replacement for our universal values that will work better—one that replaced a broad, shared commitment to equality with individual white people admitting complicity in perpetuating systemic racism. But they probably didn’t.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence for that point? Like sure, I'd love to blame Twitter and Facebook for all of our societal ills, but they aren't new. Culture wars didn't just suddenly happen in the early 00s. Cue the 1960s and 70s long before any social media and the amazing amount of not just protests but bombings, assassinations and so on that make the current culture war seem like a mere shouting match.

"The Social Dilemma" on Netflix touches on this - in part, the algorithms that run these platforms and govern (guide?) user interaction are responsible in large part for pitting people against each other. It's in their best interest to keep eyeballs on their respective sites as much has humanly possible.

The problem I see a lot is, "the algorithm contributes X" implies that "getting rid of the algorithm will fix X". This is not true.

For an analogy imagine a town that with an arsonist setting lots of homes on fire. It is obviously true that "storing gas in your hose contributes to houses burning down", but "getting rid of gasoline in house will not fix the fires".

For clarity I consider "the algorithm" the sophisticated ordering of your follower's posts, and the recommendation of new followers. This means getting rid of "the algorithm" mostly means going back to the 00's when post where sorted by date, likes, or simple formula that combined the two. Content still went viral, and people still sorted themselves into information silos. This meant people spend more time searching for content, but I don't see any real fundamental difference that is going to result in less polarization.

The underlying problem is people communicating with other people. I argue if we got rid of the internet it would not get rid of this polarization and spread of misinformation and conspiracy theories. In fact you saw many similar problems prior to the Civl War, when the fastest method of communication was a telegram. People still distributed pamphlets, formed clubs with like minded individuals, gossiped, and spread rumors and falsehoods.

I think people grab on to idea "the algorithm is causes polarization", because it puts single thing, presents a specific solution (change/get rid of the algorithm), and has an specific, abstract group of people to blame the owners and employees of the big tech companies. People don't like it what the problems affecting their lives are caused by dozens of interacting forces and there is no clear simple solution, but rather a lot of work in a lot of areas.

As an aside drop in disappearing manufacturing jobs and illegal immigrants. See what you get.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#553
post #412

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> In the US, it seems these 13% receive outsize political attention as well. I recall at the run up to the 2016 election, one of the main issues was gender and public bathroom usage. I couldn't help wondering at the time why that issue received so much attention vs. the 42,000 opioid overdose fatalities that year alone, which got virtually zero attention. One factor in that is America is a pretty unequal society, and…

Could you give some examples of societies that are more equal and how they are?

> Could you give some examples of societies that are more equal and how they are?

Why? That has nothing to do with my point. Even if the US was in fact the most equal society to ever exist, it's indisputable that it still has significant inequality, which was the starting point of my comment.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#554
post #542

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>I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. I understand your argument but I also in no way want to distract from the culpability owned by social media companies, their product designers and managers, and the people who wrote the code to implement their desires. They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. Traditional media companies may have exacerbated the…

> They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. What damage? The stuff people wrote on it? That's the people. That's what I love about people who think everyone should vote. But just look at Twitter. Most people are poorly informed idiots who are hyper-emotional and inclined to mob-think. I'm all for more direct democracy but that doesn't mean I want anyone and everyone to vote. We nee…

> The stuff people wrote on it? That's the people.

That’s like putting an alligator pit in a mall and blaming people for getting eaten.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the 'knowledge is useful' stance presupposes that these classes have value, that what they're teaching is actually true or useful. That's precisely what many of us don't believe. Suppose we were discussing a risk management seminar which you had reason to believe was teaching a flawed methodology, one likely to cause serious harm if widely adopted. Would you be similarly sanguine in that case?

> That's precisely what many of us don't believe. With respect, I'll defer to the career sociologists and psychologists on the topic, much as I'd defer to the risk management PhD on the topic of risk management. I've known too many tech-savvy folk who think humans can be reduced and deconstructed like a computer, declare humanities research bunk because it doesn't fit their mental model, and get profoundly surprised…

Psychology and sociology departments are radicalized echo chambers. No one in he street has any of the imaginary problems they concoct.

Morgan Freeman (black) has said it years ago: "Stop talking about it".

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You live in a large metro area where beliefs are fairly uniform. It would be understandable if you share those beliefs that you wouldn't have any disagreements, right? And I'm not sharing with HN the details of my family and workplace discussions, sorry. But maybe someone else here will be willing to. If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you. Edit: I mean, the media even covers the near constant revo…

"If you don't believe me, then that's OK, that's up to you." I didn't say, suggest or imply that I didn't believe you. I stated my alternative experience and asked for more information about yours. "the media even covers the near constant revolts of activist employees" From what I see, those are arguments between people who believe in Thing A very strongly and want to act on it and people who also believe in Thing A…

Step 1: "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me" (a sentiment you agree with, from your other comment in this thread)

Step 2: "I almost never encounter people who think we should [...] not fight racism"

You're free to exclude anyone you don't like from your friends – it's your life. But if you do this, maybe don't use the fact that your bubble doesn't have anyone who thinks differently from you as evidence of there being very few people out there who disagree with you on such things?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#557
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your #2, summarizing, isn't what I usually see in these "here's what people are saying on Twitter" stories. The valuable version that you're talking about would have to include things like polls or something, saying "20% of people agree with this idea, 5% agree with this other idea, etc." Instead, these stories just say here's some tweets that are really edgy/funny/gotchas/something I agree with."

> The valuable version that you're talking about would have to include things like polls or something, saying "20% of people agree with this idea, 5% agree with this other idea, etc." I disagree that would be "the valuable version." That's just "the more quantified" version. A music critic's list of the 100 best songs of 2020 is not inferior to Billboard's list of the 100 most popular songs of 2020 as determined by q…

It's not the quantification that makes it important, it's that it's being put into context. When you see a list of twenty tweets holding the same viewpoint, the main question is whether they are representative (and of whom are they representative). Whether you say "70%" or just "most people," it's the same value that's missing usually. The quantification doesn't matter.

It's the difference between a music critic choosing the 100 best songs (fine, because it's a person's own opinion presented honestly) versus a music critic saying they're just going with the popular consensus while cherry picking tweets that happen to pick the 100 they would have chosen (bad, because the tweets aren't put into context). Or like a traditional paper looking for a scientist who will say something exciting/sensational in a particular direction, then presenting it as scientific consensus.

You can find a group saying anything on twitter. That means that the fact that some particular thing exists on it is useless.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#558
post #79
post #34

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I know those diversity sessions... They claim everyone who is white or passing as white is racist. I had to "confess" that i'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. Sidenote: I volunteer at a refugee center and took in a syrian family. Literally hitler, i know. A colleague got fired because he wouldn't confess and left the session. So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's…

I've been in such trainings, and I've seen lots of people get offended at hearing "you benefit from racism" as if it meant "you're racist". Racists in positions of power may tilt the playing field in your favor whether you've asked for it or not. And it may not even be you personally, but people in your neighborhood, your social groups in general.

What exactly is the goal? How is this supposed to enhance the work environment?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. I understand your argument but I also in no way want to distract from the culpability owned by social media companies, their product designers and managers, and the people who wrote the code to implement their desires. They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. Traditional media companies may have exacerbated the…

I'm going to retort, specifically in the context of a very important issue in the US currently: the BLM movement. Contrary to popular thought, the "liberal" media utterly failed minorities. The abuse of minorities in the US spans generations and has consistently been relegated to the margins of mainstream news. It has been typical in the US -- for decades -- for the NY Times to grant a single death in Israel front pa…

> But believe this -- what we have seen in 2020 is progress.

One can hope. Let's tally up by 2025.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m one of those “extremists” who went to TJ and supports the end of the test. What can I do to convince you that I’m a real person and not a lunatic?

I didn't call anyone a lunatic. But believing that we should abandon testing entire is an opinion that is extreme in the sense it's not widely held: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ... Super majorities of people believe race should play no factor at all in college admissions. And grades and standardized test scores are the two things people list first as criteria that should govern admissi…

Notably, TJ isn't a college.

And a full 12% of surveyed people in the article you cite think that testing should play no role in college admissions. It 12% is below the bar for "extreme" then a tremendous number of beliefs that are common among the tech crowd should be labeled as "extreme".

I think you are using a rhetorical trick to retreat. I'm not coming for your children.

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