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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

111–120 of 674 posts

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#111
post #4

I like the More in Common Project. But it overlooks the disproportionate representation of the extremists in our institutions. This happened at my alma matter earlier this year: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... . They also voted to abandon entrance exams at my magnet high school: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4979 It’s not comforting to know that only a tiny minority of people a…

I’m one of those “extremists” who went to TJ and supports the end of the test. What can I do to convince you that I’m a real person and not a lunatic?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#112
Another interesting factor is the level of excitement found in young people with little experience in the sphere under discussion. (i.e. college campuses are full of zealots who've lived privileged lives and don't really have any contact with many of the subjects they are excitedly concerned about).

Last week the internet had a compelling video showing a young white person yelling at a black man trying to cross a BLM barricade. The black man wanted to go on his way, the protester was insulting him and telling him what a terrible person he was.

It's completely nuts. But not a new phenomenon.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first describes a quasi-religious ritual in which all participants ritually affirm that they are unworthy sinners, racists. Why would being racist make someone an unworthy sinner? Racism is just treating others differently based on their race. It’s not weird or evil. In fact, it’s perfectly normal and even understandable. Humans have probably always separated themselves into groups. Even chimpanzees do it. I th…

> Meanwhile, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, and UVA all have affirmative action and are doing fine. Decades of supposedly different standards haven’t hurt their standing. They continue to graduate a diverse class of high achievers that are well-represented in just about every field imaginable. How does that square with your claims? That’s the entire point of comparing CUNY and Berkeley. You can maintain pre…

Fine, the University of Chicago, Wake Forest, and almost all of the elite liberal arts colleges (Williams College, Swarthmore College, Bowdoin College, etc) are test optional or test free and no worse for it.

Standardized tests are one measure of academic merit and not even the best one. There are plenty of 1500s reporting to 1250s.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#114
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the Daily Mail seems to have toned it down a bit since the editor changed a few years ago. Subject to the caveat that I haven't lived in the UK for over 15 years, overall the popular press in the UK is a bit shocking. I don't know of any liberal western country where you see the kind of racism routinely displayed on the front page of mainstream/popular UK newspapers. Perhaps xenophobia rather than direct…

The Daily Mail had an anti-WFH campaign recently with classics like this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8671837/RICHARD-L...

I'm no fan of the awful writers and opinions are the Daily Mail. This did get me thinking though:

> Meanwhile, they’re climbing over each other to fill their faces with state-subsidised chicken and chips at Nando’s, while at the same time pretending to be too frightened to turn up for work.

I walked around town at the weekend. Town seemed as busy as I'd expect during a holiday, which is to say people everywhere in crowds. I noticed Nando's was jam-packed with people inside and outside, as densely as I've ever seen it, no social distancing and little mask use was apparent including among the people crowded on the pavement outside. Same as I walked past other places, and some pubs were heaving, inside and outside.

To be honest, I didn't feel safe walking around the streets with the way people were outside; it became difficult to avoid densely packed groups at some points. The "rule of six" was a joke, I saw groups of 20 people who were obviously together with no masks. Every so often, I'd find myself in the middle of a group who would just surround me on their way past, 0.5m away if that, no masks, and no way for me to avoid them. I'd make the effort to keep out of people's way, and I'd be occasionally thanked for it. But most people seemed to make no effort or have any awareness. About half of all people outside had masks, but of those with masks, about half were not wearing them.

So is that WFH people in the restaurants? I don't know, but I suspect the folks who have lost their jobs, or getting by doing manual labour like food deliveries, or working in hospitals and care homes, aren't the ones spending much at the pubs and restaurants at the moment.

Among my friends who are programmers, about half talk about their social meetups (face to face) at the pub, houses, in the parks etc and seem to have some disdain for CV restrictions. The other half are like me, have high respect for CV restrictions and generally avoiding town and avoiding non-virtual social meetups, and don't think highly of those people who don't wear masks or keep a distance.

I think the Daily Mail anti-WFH rant is typical Tory "get back to work" top-grade bullshit because WFH isn't about people individually saying they are "scared", it's about protecting people at work, which is a company and institution responsibility. The fact some people will densely pack themselves at Nando's etc adds more reason to keep them away from offices for the protection of other people, not less reason. But I thought it did highlight some interesting contradictions going on in society at the moment.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#115
post #95
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats an over-reaction. The first is not religious in any sense. It appears to be an acknowledgment of the bias's we all have as humans. We all have bias's, unconscious and conscious - its part of being human. In that sense we're all 'racist' to some degree and its important to acknowledge that so as to overcome it. As far as the second example cited I think more information is missing before jumping to a conclusion.

> In that sense we're all 'racist' to some degree and its important to acknowledge that so as to overcome it. No. I reject this. No matter how many times you or others tell me that I’m racist and can’t help it, and if I just pray... I mean take enough sanctioned training courses it’ll go away I will not partake. Period. Nobody is racist until proven otherwise, or racist until they’ve taken enough unconscious bias tra…

>No. I reject this. No matter how many times you or others tell me that I’m racist and can’t help it, and if I just pray... I mean take enough sanctioned training courses it’ll go away I will not partake. Period. Nobody is racist until proven otherwise, or racist until they’ve taken enough unconscious bias training courses. That’s something you and others are making up to deal with your own insecurities and racism. Being uncomfortable walking down the street at night because you see a black man is your racism. Not mine. No thanks.

Racism comes in many forms, it's not just about being scared of black men on the street. That's a wildly exaggerated strawman.

Everyone has biases and prejudices. Everyone. Yes, that includes you.

But people don't have the same biases and prejudices. People differ in what they're prejudiced against (or for!) and they differ in the magnitude of their prejudice.

And let's be clear: this is not just about skin colour. Gender, sexual orientation, class, accent, formal education... people have prejudices against all of these things and more.

Unconscious bias not a type of prayer or cleansing ritual. You don't stop being biased or prejudiced because you do UB training.

It is supposed to help you identify when and how that prejudice manifests itself so that you can take a step back and try and consciously try and remove your prejudices from your decision-making.

And if you reject racism, why not arm yourself with this tool? If you're not racist (or sexist or classist etc...) Why not take a couple of seconds to think "has some stereotype about this person lead me to this conclusion? No? Okay, let's carry on..."

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#116
post #27
post #5

Yes. The culture war is to a great extent a US import. The US is extremely polarised, possibly uniquely so for a country with a single national language and mostly-shared ethnic background (compare Belgium, which is highly polarised but along language lines). The UK has its own natural fragmentation lines (north/south, class system, four nations, catholic/protestant) but those are not the lines on which the culture w…

I’m not saying talk Radio and Fox News aren’t part of the problem, but blaming that alone for the polarization is short-sighted. A huge part of our polarization is due to our Supreme Court resolving social disputes before society has reached a consensus. Folks in Europe often don’t appreciate how different American constitutional law is on social issues compared to European norms: The UK makes teaching religion manda…

>The UK legalized abortion by law. It’s 24-week limit on abortion for economic reasons is the longest in the EU. In the US, abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court. 24 weeks is a fairly typical limit in the US—a country that’s more religious than Poland (where abortion is illegal). The 12-week limit in Denmark or Germany or France, or the waiting periods that were place in France until 2015, would be unconstitutional. Germany’s abortion laws (where the constitutional court found it unconstitutional to legalize abortion so it’s still just decriminalized under 12 weeks, and where there is a counseling requirement) would be unimaginable. Indeed, at the same time as the Supreme Court found a constitutional right to abortion, the courts of Canada, Austria, and France found that it was a matter for the legislature to decide.

Indeed. To provide background for others, by the early 1970s various US states had legalized abortion. In Roe v. Wade, however, the Supreme Court ruled that abortion was a constitutional right, abruptly legalizing it nationwide with more or less no restrictions whatsoever; even many abortion-rights supporters believe that the legal theory behind the decision was faulty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#Legal). The result was so across-the-board that, among other things, the US still allows abortions to occur later than anywhere else.

Preventing the full political debate process from occurring is why abortion remains so controversial in the country almost 50 years and counting. Because such issues are polarizing and partisan, they need full discussion in a legislature, as opposed to unelected judges unilaterally short-circuiting the debate.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#117
post #4

I like the More in Common Project. But it overlooks the disproportionate representation of the extremists in our institutions. This happened at my alma matter earlier this year: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... . They also voted to abandon entrance exams at my magnet high school: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4979 It’s not comforting to know that only a tiny minority of people a…

I’m one of those “extremists” who went to TJ and supports the end of the test. What can I do to convince you that I’m a real person and not a lunatic?

I don’t believe you’re a lunatic. I believe your values are inimical to excellence and that you support destroying one of the tiny number of schools that support accelerated education for gifted children in the USA. That benefits no one and harms the children deprived of the opportunity to go to a school where they are challenged.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#118
post #97
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> simultaneously absolved Trump of any links to Russia The investigation also failed to find sufficient evidence to charge anyone in the Trump administration with collusion. At this point Russiagate is thoroughly debunked.

Collusion is a very specific charge. I wouldn't call "Russiagate" in any way debunked given this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_charges_brought_in_th...

No American on that list got indicted of anything related to "Russiagate", but for unrelated procedural crimes discovered during the investigation. (You know the saying that everyone wittingly or unwittingly commits three crimes a day?) Several Russian agents were indicted for Russiagate-related things; Putin will turn his goons over to US custody any day now.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone thinks that racism at all levels isn't a problem I can strongly suggest reading about the Windrush scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal I'm in the middle of a reading a book about it at the moment and to say I am appalled by how these people were treated is an understatement.

How did “we lost the paperwork” turn into “well you look foreign so leave your country”?

Other way round. The UK's racism has pervaded the Home Office, so it's now finding pretexts to deport as many people as possible. This is why the UK removed in 2013 the ability to claim legal aid money for immigration cases, to make it harder for people to dispute their illegal decisions.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#120
post #5

Yes. The culture war is to a great extent a US import. The US is extremely polarised, possibly uniquely so for a country with a single national language and mostly-shared ethnic background (compare Belgium, which is highly polarised but along language lines). The UK has its own natural fragmentation lines (north/south, class system, four nations, catholic/protestant) but those are not the lines on which the culture w…

>While there has been incursion of talk radio (LBC/Farage), there is no counterpart to the hyper-polarised TV of Fox News yet. Sky News is comparatively normal.

This is because we have strong broadcast regulation. Broadcasters must have regard for due impartiality and due accuracy.[0]

LBC are managing to push that line to its very limit, by having shows that are presented by opposing polemics so that overall they maintain balance.

[0] https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-co...

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