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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

441–450 of 674 posts

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m one of those “extremists” who went to TJ and supports the end of the test. What can I do to convince you that I’m a real person and not a lunatic?

I don’t believe you’re a lunatic. I believe your values are inimical to excellence and that you support destroying one of the tiny number of schools that support accelerated education for gifted children in the USA. That benefits no one and harms the children deprived of the opportunity to go to a school where they are challenged.

But you led with people like me as example of extremism in modern discourse. What makes me not an extremist but my peers extremists?

It is true that we probably have somewhat different values. I don't personally value TJ having some high rating as decided by magazines and would happily sacrifice scores if I believed it was possible to better provide education to gifted students across Fairfax County. And I do believe that the test makes it harder for FCPS to do this well, though it certainly allows TJ to select for specific kinds of students that make it score well in magazine ratings.

I also believe that it is not good to separate students into many strata earlier in life and believe that the lottery limits the effect of wealth and other inequities on young kids. You may believe that we should reward students who studied their brains out in school, did test prep on weekends, and joined clubs so they could round out a resume. Those are different values and that's okay.

It is also very likely that we have different opinions about the expected outcome of ending the test. I believe that it will make it easier, not harder for students to access high quality education and recognizing that there are so many students that could succeed at TJ will encourage FCPS to allocate more resources to magnet programs so there can be more slots for these students. I also hope that this will demonstrate the need for a humanities-focused alternative, which currently does not exist (the humanities education offered at TJ is atrocious, IMO). I also believe that moving away from strict testing as the primary mechanism for excellence will help TJ recover some of its creative side that is so valuable for young learners. The creativity available during 8th period has been slowly crushed under the weight of standardized learning processes over the last several decades. A lot of the skills I learned during 8th period are no longer made available to students in order to serve the almighty test score. I hope that admitting smart students who aren't bound to testing will help this.

It is also very likely that we have different opinions about the ability of the test to separate students into strata.

I do not support destroying TJ. I believe that this makes FCPS education better and encourages more TJs.

We disagree. That's fine. But you list my peers among extremists and you claim that I intend to sabotage quality education. Why is your position not extreme?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that not the same as forcing people to stay in an unpleasant class until they confess to racism?

I believe the fact some people perceive it to be is the root of, perhaps, quite a bit of consternation on the issue. But I see it is the same as forcing people to stay in an unpleasant class until they understand type theory. We teach people things they need to know so that they know them, because knowledge is useful. We're certainly not calling the question of "having education seminars" into question, are we?

But the 'knowledge is useful' stance presupposes that these classes have value, that what they're teaching is actually true or useful. That's precisely what many of us don't believe.

Suppose we were discussing a risk management seminar which you had reason to believe was teaching a flawed methodology, one likely to cause serious harm if widely adopted. Would you be similarly sanguine in that case?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet, but these are still pretty new to corporate environments. I've been in "harassment prevention" training sessions for years, but only within the last year sat through my first "diversity, equity, and inclusion" (DEI) training. (It was not an inquisition; quite helpful in the opinion of this middle aged white guy.) There is research that shows that companies with diverse leadership and staff financially outper…

I'm super suspicious of research like that for a couple of reasons. One it would it be impossible to publish research that came to the opposite conclusion. Imagine seeing a headline that said "replacing female and black executive leadership with old white dudes increases profit" by McKinsey. Second the magnitude of the impact seems insane. This seems larger than the difference most studies find between good leadershi…

I would expect a company with more diverse leadership to outperform, because they are able to access more talent.

White men are like 35% of the U.S. population in total. So on the back of the envelope, a corporate culture that inclines toward hiring white men, also inclines against hiring from 65% of the population. That's a lot of talent available for your competitors to hire.

And the numbers get even more dramatic the younger you look. Non-hispanic white U.S. residents under 16 made up less than 50% of the population at that age as of last year. And the trend direction is obvious. Source:

https://www.brookings.edu/research/new-census-data-shows-the...

The left-hand side of this chart is what the future of the American workforce will look like. The right-hand side is what it used to look like:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common...

If a company does not figure out how to hire, retain, and promote people who are not white men, they are going to see a shrinking talent pool for decades to come. The data is obvious to corporate leaders, which is why so many companies are treating diversity as an issue for management of the business.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#444
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How has this so-called culture war invaded your family life?

Not the usual culture war, but my wife and I live with my mother-in-law and after she got addicted to a certain conspiracy youtube scene she's started taking (or almost taking) increasingly drastic actions. 1. (pre-covid) asking us to cancel a family trip to her home country because her youtube channel says the police are just randomly shooting americans for being american 2. Refusing to go outside at all for months…

Excellent example. I have mostly the same problem at the opposite end of the political spectrum, and then one extended family member on the other end who is a lot like what you describe. They all are disruptive to family life.

And the media has covered the many revolts/disagreements of activist employees at Facebook, Twitter, Coinbase and elsewhere. I'm sure people have seen the coverage?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how culture wars have impacted your work and family life. I've lived most of my life in large metro areas, so from my perspective "culture wars" are mostly people in far away towns waving fists at us city folk. The actual impact on my life is minimal.

The way that this usually effects people's personal lifes, is when there are individuals who care way to much about abstract politics, turn it into a moral cursade, and think that if you don't agree with them on every single issue then this is some huge judgment on you as a person. Basically, it is with us or against us mentality. Even not having an opinion on some abstract idea, means that you are therefore a perpet…

Apathy and centrism are friends of evil governance everywhere.

To quote Howard Zinn (even if you disagree with his politics - it applies to both sides of the aisle): "You can't be neutral on a moving train. Events are already moving in certain deadly directions, and to be neutral means to accept that."

Being "above" politics is not a virtue when the politics in question are harmful - thus, the "moral crusade".

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

> it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. This definition doesn't even bother me on face. Obviously, systems can be designed to advantage one group and disadvantage another group. And, obviously, Jim Crow effects the distribution of family wealth to this day. What bothers me about BigCorp diversity training is something a quite different. Choose a random…

> Racially skewed allocation of large company's stock due to a combination of historical discrimination lumping capital into white folk's pockets until ~60 years ago and the compounded nature of wealth is EXACTLY the sort of thing actual social theorists mean when they say "structural racism".

Ironically Ibram X. Kendi uses this exact example in "How to Be an Antiracist."

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very disturbing difference between the gay rights movement and the current social justice people. In the case of a gay marriage, a small minority was directly affected by a tangible and quantifiable problem: not being able to have the same legal status as straight families. It wasn't about taking something from the majority, or guilt-tripping others. So adopting what they asked for had a net-positive effect…

> Climate change and social justice issues don't personally affect most the people who are vocal about it. Okay, I'm stopping reading here to start replying, because there are already numerous problems with your reasoning: * In the case of gay marriage, many of the people fighting for it were not, in fact, gay, and were not personally affected. Why does that matter? There were white people fighting in the civil right…

> Why is fighting for others a problem?

Generally, it is not, but there is a risk that "people who are not X, but are fighting for X" will misrepresent the opinions of "people who are X".

Also, "people who are X" usually have diverse opinions, while the "people who are not X, but are fighting for X" crowd often develops a monolithic opinion, and if you disagree with it, you are called anti-X.

To give an example, I know gay people who want equal rights, but are disgusted by the "prides". If a woke straight person heard me saying that I support equals rights but don't like the "prides", they would call me a homophobe. Because it is known -- among the woke straight people who support gay rights -- that all gays support the "prides".

Similarly, an Indian person probably wouldn't be offended by finding out that I practice yoga (they might actually be happy about it), but a woke white person might sic a Twitter mob on me for the sin of cultural appropriation.

> Again, even if you're personally the whitest, straightest, cis-est, male-st person possible, what's wrong with standing up for the rights of others?

Nothing, unless I appropriate their cause in service of signaling my wokeness and attacking people I don't like.

For example, when racism is used as a weapon in fight between two groups of white people, who already had another reason to fight each other, but used this opportunity to make their attack more socially acceptable.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#448
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way that this usually effects people's personal lifes, is when there are individuals who care way to much about abstract politics, turn it into a moral cursade, and think that if you don't agree with them on every single issue then this is some huge judgment on you as a person. Basically, it is with us or against us mentality. Even not having an opinion on some abstract idea, means that you are therefore a perpet…

Apathy and centrism are friends of evil governance everywhere. To quote Howard Zinn (even if you disagree with his politics - it applies to both sides of the aisle): "You can't be neutral on a moving train. Events are already moving in certain deadly directions, and to be neutral means to accept that." Being "above" politics is not a virtue when the politics in question are harmful - thus, the "moral crusade".

Ok, fine if hold that viewpoint, but don't gaslight us that nothing new is going on. Politics has invaded everything, and it wasn't like this even 10 years ago.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first describes a quasi-religious ritual in which all participants ritually affirm that they are unworthy sinners, racists. Those who believe get the satisfaction of publicly proclaiming their sin, signaling their superiority over the outsiders. Those who don’t believe have their faces rubbed in the fact that other people have the power to make them lie in public about who they are and what they believe. It shows…

The comparison to religious rituals is interesting. As someone who is Catholic, this looks to me sort of like an attempt at a group confession, but at least in the Catholic tradition we perform examinations of conscience [1] and go to confession [2] and we are told to come to terms with what we actually did wrong. You don't get away with some vague acknowledgement of being a sinner. As the Catechism says, "Through su…

Not to mention that the Catholic form of confession doesn't require you to publicly proclaim your "sins" in front of your peers!

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#450
post #4

I like the More in Common Project. But it overlooks the disproportionate representation of the extremists in our institutions. This happened at my alma matter earlier this year: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... . They also voted to abandon entrance exams at my magnet high school: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4979 It’s not comforting to know that only a tiny minority of people a…

That school appears to be abandoning the exam in favor of GPA. I certainly don't know their own data on the utility of the test vs. GPA in predicting student success, but I do know that data with respect to college admissions: HS GPA is consistently as good or slightly better than standardized test scores.

Even if the balance is tilted the other way for this particular magnet school, it's quite inflammatory to claim this initiative is in any way similar the destruction of 1,500 year old religious icons by an extremely violent group of religious extremists.

The people who "rearranged their lives" to try to get their children into the school are also in no way entitled a spot. If this school is doing an excellent job teaching students, and that absolutely appears to be the case, then more energy should be spent on expanding those same opportunities to a greater number of people, not worrying about the speculative incremental decline in quality that might be incurred when switching from one set of entrance criteria to another.

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