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The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

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Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#131
post #130
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying." Wow, no, this is a fundamental misunderstanding right at the core of the issue. The 'cost' is that of 'creating and developing'- and FYI it's not 'information' - in most cases it's 'creative works' not some kind of 'discovered knowledge'. MS Windows is a 'Developed and supported Product' - not 'Information'. In much the same way it only costs $2 to 'm…

Every home likely has five to six linux OS running locally; routers, TVs, phones, refrigerators, video doorbell etc.

And almost all of those, except maybe the router and phones if the users are technically sophisticated enough, will be locked down and refuse to obey the user. When Linux gets Tivoized, well-meaning devs have helped corporations abuse their users and customers.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#132
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news: Crypto created the new business model for open source software. Naval: "Ironic that the most monetizeable code in the world is now open source (running on blockchains). OSS has the best business model." https://twitter.com/naval/status/867860551522598912

They created a new business model for a new type of open source software. It doesn't do anything for all the existing types of open source software. Nobody is going to turn glibc into a blockchain.

That's just a sign of glibc being stuck in the wrong millennium more than anything else. Add a couple functions to create ERC20 tokens and add the EVM as a supported architecture and I'm sure that can change. It's high time to remove those unsafe APIs like strcpy and printf that cause CVEs all the time and refocus effort on things that actually matter.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#133
post #130
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying." Wow, no, this is a fundamental misunderstanding right at the core of the issue. The 'cost' is that of 'creating and developing'- and FYI it's not 'information' - in most cases it's 'creative works' not some kind of 'discovered knowledge'. MS Windows is a 'Developed and supported Product' - not 'Information'. In much the same way it only costs $2 to 'm…

Every home likely has five to six linux OS running locally; routers, TVs, phones, refrigerators, video doorbell etc.

Yes, of course, but as an 'Application Platform' Linux obviously not ubiquitous.

There are a number of free and commercial substitutes for Linux that could be used at that embedded level and of course, they are perfectly encapsulated and monolithic: your 'fridge' is not a platform wherein there needs to be some degree of OS-level integration with other bits of software. From a systems perspective 'it doesn't matter' what OS is running on your refrigerator.

But it's moot: there is no inherent morality in 'free software'. Software is just another good, with different means to distribute, one of which is FOSS, which is really great, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t think he was wearing a tinfoil hat. I agreed with RMS back then insofar as he saw things like TPM coming. However, he did not understand then and still does not understand that by using any device as complex as a computer, the user must trust _somebody_. His free software ideals lead him to think that if the user can read the source and modify it, he can trust it. But this is true of no one, regardless of hi…

Somewhat misleading to claim that 'one user' would be all there is auditing software. It's not 'one user' that audits your Linux distribution. Can something be snuck in that nobody notices into the source? Of course. But it's incredibly disingenuous to claim that because one user cannot audit all the software running on their machine that we should abandon the concept of auditable software in general and accept corpo…

You're missing the point. How do you verify that the bootloader or OS running on your hardware is the same as what the community verified? Hashes? How do you know the hash checking software is genuine without a TPM?

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#135

Phones, consoles, Chromebooks and other unrootable hardware, restrictive hardware licensing, arm's business model, abstraction over abstraction, SAAS, corporate cloud infrastructure, web apps over local, streaming over storing, walled gardens, signed binaries, nearly everything about 'modern safe computing' is all about taking control and responsibility away from users and handing it over to somebody else to be paid…

I largely agree with you, and I share many of the same sentiments. Personal computing is supposed to be about user empowerment; the ability for users to not only communicate with other people and to get work done, but to also automate their tasks through programming. Early personal computing was about achieving this vision, and while it may not have fully attained this vision, companies in the 1980s and 1990s at leas…

Thanks for that I enjoyed the read. Despite my original comment, I don't think things are entirely pessimistic. There is a push towards open computing. As far as software goes, the open front is doing well. It's hardware that worries me. Hardware is hard to do openly at a large scale it seems. Projects like purism and the pinephone stuff are a good start, but this is the direction I hope everything can start moving towards.

It does seem like a battle, for every open project you hear about, there's 10 more proprietary giants pushing some new all inclusive platform, but I don't think the war is lost or even close to being over.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are so far away from companies creating and embedding computers everywhere for this to be an issue. Apart from those in TV:s, loudspeakers, phones, light bulbs, doorbells, cars, airplanes, watches, trains, billboards, medical equipment, vacuum cleaners, washing machines, thermostats, elevators, vending machines, kitchen appliances, lawnmowers, musical instruments, cameras, bathroom scales, thermometers and a few…

> there's almost no computers at all in most everyday objects. This is true, without your qualifier. Go into a random house in America and you won’t find many smart appliances. Internet of things devices are more of a hobby for those with disposable income, than some thing greatly taking over. There’s not a real problem that smart lightbulbs are solving to be worth the time and hassle for most people. There are a cou…

I was just recently shopping for a fridge and I can report that it was surprisingly difficult to find a fridge without wifi. Sometimes it's only for remote service and maintenance, not for anything "smart", but it's there. At least the model I got doesn't internet connection to function normally. Yet.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#137
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

We need to do a lot better than UBI for FOSS to keep advancing. A caste of code monks who forgo a comfortable life to write free software from their Mom's basement, or a cabin in the woods, isn't nearly good enough. Might not be able to pay out a quarter million a year like the FAAAM crew does, but we need a bunch of jobs paying half that to write and maintain open source. If it isn't competitive with the other optio…

People take smaller salaries all the time if their work is for the public good. Quite many charity organizations find lots of people to man them. Universities are another example. Some people go into the industry, others become researchers.

Instead of paying 10 people 100k annually, I'd rather pay 20 people 50k. That's enough to live a comfortable life in most places, including most places in US. Would it give you the people who are in tech only for the money? Probably not. Maybe you don't really want them in the first place, because even though they might be smart and work well, maybe they aren't the "best" people for the job, as they don't optimize by what's best for their users but by what's best for them.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#138

Phones, consoles, Chromebooks and other unrootable hardware, restrictive hardware licensing, arm's business model, abstraction over abstraction, SAAS, corporate cloud infrastructure, web apps over local, streaming over storing, walled gardens, signed binaries, nearly everything about 'modern safe computing' is all about taking control and responsibility away from users and handing it over to somebody else to be paid…

What I've seen over the last ~25 years is that general purpose computing is a double-edged sword for normal people. The most straightforward reasons for most of the walled gardens are malware, adware, spyware, and ransomware.

Android probably comes the closest to a free market for software that gives normal users some measure of control over their own devices. It requires TPM and secure boot so that there's a viable option for normal people who accidentally install a bad APK. Normal people can't flash EEPROMS by hand to remove rootkits.

I'd love if general computing was pushed as one of the most important things for people to know. I still think that the level of expertise necessary to maintain a malware-free computing experience is beyond the reach of most people. Computer and network security are hard.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#139
post #24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember in the 90s people all thought Stallman was crazy. And by people I mean developers, Linux users, people on usenet, etc. We all appreciated his contributions but at the end of the day just figured he was wearing a tin foil hat.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

You can try a different reasoning track. In the 'old days' software was more often than not driven by intrinsic motivation. I just loved making games that me and my friends could play. I loved writing software so writing useful apps for myself and good people around me did not need an extrinsic financial reward. Later I worked in academia for a long time. Again the research. gaining new insights in the company of other passionate and smart people was the intrinsic driver.

It was not until much later, due leaving good environments for bad reasons, that external financial motivations became a driver, providing a temporary bad self justification for not leaving sooner. Even then, solving the puzzle, exceeding the clients expectation. We're still the most rewarding parts of the job.

If you love what you do, money just becomes an issue in just 2 cases.

(1) When your needs for living in comfort (and with that I mean the luxury of not having to worry about money) are not met.

(2) When you feel others are exploiting you financially (you see disproportionate gains by others based of your work)

Now. Against this background, let us return to the question of 'will software still get written if we allow the free distribution of it'?

My believe is yes. While it is most certainly not for everyone, a certain type of people just love to create digital platforms and solutions. In fact their passion is now more often than not exploited, see for example the practices in the major gaming industry. There are more than enough specific needs that people will want to prioritise to offer financial incentives for their prioterization even if that means the result will become part of the commons. Current exclusive IP exploitation rights very seldom reward the creators, most often just those who have constructed layers on layers of financial instruments confining and leeching of the creative.

Finally IP protection most certainly stifles innovation. It restricts forms of further creation. The question is Wether this reduction is compensated by a boon in extrinsic driven creation that would be missing in the absense of guaranteed monopolies on exploitation. My guess once again is no. Science, innovation in knowledge, has progressed for centuries through the free sharing of ideas. The Eastern electronics industry has thrived in a climate of fluid copying and absense of IP enforcement. Most of the 'major' industry investments carry disproportionate public investments through grants and incentives while still locking up all rights on the publicly funded results.

We might see a different software world if copying and extending of all software was free, but not one whete creators go hungry, or innovation ceased to exist.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#140
post #115
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

Greed is not the problem, and trying to avoid it is going to frankly impossible and would require a degree of control that honestly none of us should want. The problem is that the individual is not being greedy enough for their own control. They are being greedy for many wrong things, not exclusively but many. This problem is solved with education not control, which is what stallman had tried to do. People should und…

Education won't help with systemic problems. Even if individuals would be equally, ruthlessly greedy as corporation, you're still talking about uncoordinated individuals taking on a money making megamachine.

Living by greed in the market economy is an exercise of exploiting a positive feedback loop. Larger entities benefit more from it, and the larger they are, they more they benefit.

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