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The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

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Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#121
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was too young in the 90's to know about him, but in the early 00's people definitely didn't think him crazy. Linux was doing well and his contributions to its success were recognised, even if he didn't get as much credit as he wanted (should've got?). I feel it's the past ten years that he's become more notorious for his quirks and his gaffes. For someone who was such a large philosophical influence on our industry…

> Even though we have Linux, I would love to see more dominant GPL projects out there. It is an excellent license when used strategically and I think it's dismissed as too extreme too often. Unfortunately, the startup/business world has largely taken over most forms of open source development, and they've put a lot of pressure to change the default license for new projects from (A/L)GPL to ASL. That change enables a…

> I wish we could live in a world where the default was to contribute with time and/or money to support each other

But we can. One Thing that is absolutely evident from the fantastically vibrant open source communities forming around every conceivable niche, it is exactly how much energy and enthusiasm to do just that is out there.

We “just“ need to scale it up.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is plain English. Using a dictionary to help yourself out with the more uncommon words is a better approach than asking people to restrict their vocabulary to suit you.

>Secure boot is opaque to most Secure boot is a technical term that the poster might not be familiar with, but given we are on HN it might be assumed they can figure it out. Still, not really plain English. >that can be used to ensure that any virtue can be clean room redesigned by the monolith... is not plain English, clean room is piece of jargon that again, being on HN the poster might be familiar with but also no…

Clean room, as in clean room reverse engineering. The practice of getting seasoned engineers to pick something apart, spec it out, and the hand it to a bunch of juniors to reimplement free of legal entanglements.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#123
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

We need to do a lot better than UBI for FOSS to keep advancing. A caste of code monks who forgo a comfortable life to write free software from their Mom's basement, or a cabin in the woods, isn't nearly good enough. Might not be able to pay out a quarter million a year like the FAAAM crew does, but we need a bunch of jobs paying half that to write and maintain open source. If it isn't competitive with the other optio…

This is something that Gitcoin Grants solves fairly well. Quadratic funding of public goods allows open source developers to be funded full time by the community.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#125

Phones, consoles, Chromebooks and other unrootable hardware, restrictive hardware licensing, arm's business model, abstraction over abstraction, SAAS, corporate cloud infrastructure, web apps over local, streaming over storing, walled gardens, signed binaries, nearly everything about 'modern safe computing' is all about taking control and responsibility away from users and handing it over to somebody else to be paid…

I've taken a liking to the classic Franklin quote ever since "secure boot" and such user-hostile features started, which is roughly around the time Cory wrote this. I'm aware that its original meaning was different, but it seems like a nice catchphrase to rally behind for this "civil war":

"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#126
post #24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember in the 90s people all thought Stallman was crazy. And by people I mean developers, Linux users, people on usenet, etc. We all appreciated his contributions but at the end of the day just figured he was wearing a tin foil hat.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

"The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying."

Wow, no, this is a fundamental misunderstanding right at the core of the issue.

The 'cost' is that of 'creating and developing'- and FYI it's not 'information' - in most cases it's 'creative works' not some kind of 'discovered knowledge'.

MS Windows is a 'Developed and supported Product' - not 'Information'.

In much the same way it only costs $2 to 'make' your pair of Nike shoes - it's definitely not the 'cost of parts and labour' (though that's obviously an input).

Making anything working, of material value is usually an excessive grind involving a lot of people. 'Software' is not 'the implementation of some algorithm' it's all of the ugly complexities around that and the sausage-making realities of getting things to work well and play nicely with other platforms. And then of course it requires ongoing support, maintenance, docs, training, security updates etc.. That's real work.

In then 1990's when we 'controlled' the software that went onto our Mac/PCs ... that we didn't have access to Windows or Adobe Photoshop source code wasn't really an excessive problem.

Especially the fact that there was a clean delineation between 'OS and Software' (other than for say MS Office Products) - then it 'mostly worked'.

IP protections are absolutely not going away, for good reason, the challenge is to make those work as the situation evolves, moreover, they are not the 'real problem' frankly, as excessive platform control (i.e. Apple, now Google) represent a more fundamental issue, and consider that happens while technically most of Android is open source anyhow.

Even Linux is open and popular, and to this day it's still a mostly 'dev/interest' OS that most people don't use in their homes, partly due to distribution power controls by MS/Apple, but also because frankly managing massive real world deployments of 'Moms, Dads and frankly most people' who 'just want it to work' is an operational challenge as much as it is an R&D/Creative effort.

Consider the basic economics involved: Even reasonably smart corporations with 'good IT' still don't generally deploy Linux to regular userbase. Why not? Because $50 a year to MS is very cheap, and frankly worth every penny in terms of value created. Any 'supported' Linux variation is going to cost 'something' anyhow, so what's the difference between '$20 a year' for some 'supported Linux variation' and '$50 a year' for MW Windows? Basically nothing. In a per capita basis, the true cost of a lot of software is marginal.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#127
There will come a point when walled gardens predominate to such a degree that general purpose computing platforms will show themselves to be one of the last remaining impediments to the kind of absolute censorship of ideas (or even empirical facts) that "woke" HNers cannot tolerate--at which point they will abruptly switch sides and endorse outlawing, restricting, or at the very least stigmatizing those platforms and their users.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#128
post #51

The only thing that brings me solace in regards to doomsday scenarios like this is that they're extremely unlikely because of human incompetence. We are so far away from companies creating and embedding computers everywhere for this to be an issue. Let alone for sophisticated means of interaction. And lets say we somehow exceed all expectations and companies start creating marvelous products that are all on par with…

I’ve learned through many failed alarmism through history to generally take a conservative view on these matters.

The examples you provided with general human stupidity and disorder is a good one.

Another one, besides The Singularity fluff, which is very much related to your own two and which we see often today, is with AI. You can also find other examples littered in the history of sci-fi literature, especially towards real life projections, not just fantasy.

My big less was that humans are naturally inclined to massive overestimated our ability to master these systems and are terrible at projecting how these systems will also be adopted and run (typically always assuming some masterfully run corporation or government full of geniuses).

The reality is almost always extremely more underwhelming.

Not to downplay the need for things like controls on privacy or surveillance.

But even something like the NSA is probably a good example. They are capable of so much with today’s technology and do in fact work very hard to have said genius’s work there. But I’m sure general bureaucracy and institutional incompetence has stopped many of our worst imagined fears from being realized on a wide (and therefore meaningful) scale.

This sort of thinking helps us become more practical in our projections and our handling or what is possible (and a counter to knee jerk reactions for hyper control through hyperbolic and extensive law - which we’ve seen frequently elsewhere in history places such as drug prohibition and race controls, where the controls cause far worse harm than any betterment).

I also think this is why older people tend to be more conservative in their expectations. Personal failures and learned education of those in history help push us in this direction. Unbridled optimism is for the youth. And I still think an important thing for society to move forward. As long as it’s not the only voice in the room, as it seems to always want to be.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even though we have Linux, I would love to see more dominant GPL projects out there. It is an excellent license when used strategically and I think it's dismissed as too extreme too often. Unfortunately, the startup/business world has largely taken over most forms of open source development, and they've put a lot of pressure to change the default license for new projects from (A/L)GPL to ASL. That change enables a…

> I wish we could live in a world where the default was to contribute with time and/or money to support each other But we can. One Thing that is absolutely evident from the fantastically vibrant open source communities forming around every conceivable niche, it is exactly how much energy and enthusiasm to do just that is out there. We “just“ need to scale it up.

"I wish we could live in a world where the default was to contribute with time and/or money to support each other"

Hmm, maybe we could 'exchange' our services and creative works for some kind of 'credit system, or currency' - not controlled by a 'central source' - but, you know, acting as 'free acting agents and groups of agents' - freely exchanging our products services for one another, setting our own prices and terms with one another.

Hmmm ... I wonder if there's a term for that kind of system ...

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#130
post #126
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

"The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying." Wow, no, this is a fundamental misunderstanding right at the core of the issue. The 'cost' is that of 'creating and developing'- and FYI it's not 'information' - in most cases it's 'creative works' not some kind of 'discovered knowledge'. MS Windows is a 'Developed and supported Product' - not 'Information'. In much the same way it only costs $2 to 'm…

Every home likely has five to six linux OS running locally; routers, TVs, phones, refrigerators, video doorbell etc.
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