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The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

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Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#51
The only thing that brings me solace in regards to doomsday scenarios like this is that they're extremely unlikely because of human incompetence.

We are so far away from companies creating and embedding computers everywhere for this to be an issue. Let alone for sophisticated means of interaction.

And lets say we somehow exceed all expectations and companies start creating marvelous products that are all on par with the iphone. It's still going to be difficult for them. There are people out there that are afraid of 5g because they think it causes coronavirus. We've avoided capitalizing on nuclear energy because of NIMBY. These nutjobs combined with perpetually on the fence observers will be a big enough stumbling block for a lot of this overreaching behavior. Remember how places banned google glasses?

Have faith in human stupidity and disorder - it's a tried and true system.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#52
post #14

This is something Stallman[1] and others have talked about for a while now, with this article having been published in 2003[2]. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html [2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

I remember in the 90s people all thought Stallman was crazy. And by people I mean developers, Linux users, people on usenet, etc. We all appreciated his contributions but at the end of the day just figured he was wearing a tin foil hat.

I didn’t think he was wearing a tinfoil hat. I agreed with RMS back then insofar as he saw things like TPM coming. However, he did not understand then and still does not understand that by using any device as complex as a computer, the user must trust _somebody_. His free software ideals lead him to think that if the user can read the source and modify it, he can trust it. But this is true of no one, regardless of his technical acumen. The software is too large, too complex for any one user to audit.

So the user must trust someone. Typically this is going to be at a minimum his OS vendor. He might also have to trust other software vendors, and maybe hardware vendors and network operators. That the vendor provides Free Software makes no difference. I have a machine running Debian. I still have to trust Debian.

What TPM does is give the OS vendor another tool so I can be assured that I’m running what the vendor provided. Of course the vendor can abuse this. But if he does, I have bigger problems. I want the vendor to be able to provide me with what I asked for and therefore I welcome technologies like TPM.

I don’t disagree with RMS because he’s paranoid. I disagree with him because he thinks Freedom is an elixir.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#53
Phones, consoles, Chromebooks and other unrootable hardware, restrictive hardware licensing, arm's business model, abstraction over abstraction, SAAS, corporate cloud infrastructure, web apps over local, streaming over storing, walled gardens, signed binaries, nearly everything about 'modern safe computing' is all about taking control and responsibility away from users and handing it over to somebody else to be paid for and properly managed by them for the users own safety.

This is bullshit. It's for profit and control.

The general purpose computer is hands down the most amazing, equalizing piece of technology humanity has ever created.

It's one of the few things that gives the average person the same abilities as the wealthy or elite. Whoever you are, where ever you are, if you have a general purpose computer and some knowledge, you can do just about anything.

Rather than teach people about this amazing, near magical piece of technology enabling anyone to do amazing things, the whole attitude, at least since i've been around using computers going back fairly far is, 'users can't be trusted with this power and need to be protected from themselves at their own expense by some other benevolent entity'.

Instead of being taught as something that's now just a part of life, the way something like driving is, despite being nearly as, if not more important than, driving is in society these days, general computing is still pushed as this mysterious arcane art the average person needs to be protected from through the use of everything mentioned in my first paragraph by someone who can lock everything up and provide security for them.

How else could they convince people to own three, four, five a dozen of what is essentially the same thing? Just locked down in functionality in different ways.

I lay responsibility on the early generation of tech people that got rich quick in the late 90's early 2000's. They seen the potential computers had to bring, they took advantage early and made money, they got greedy and have done nothing since but try and keep the average person out through whatever means necessary.

Those people are the ones running the tech giants today, pushing locked down hardware, and trying to crush general computing as a thing.

ETA: I changed my original wording from blame to lay responsibility on. My intention wasn't to blame anyone in particular but to bring awareness to the let down by those original people that benefited from the openness of general computing only to be at the forefront of trying to lock it down now.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#54
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more worrying is people I speak to regularly now don't even know who he is. And if they do it's because of the toe cheese incident. We're obsessed with celebrity trivia and judge the person rather than the message being delivered. I see that a lot in other areas these days as well. This is a broken society in my mind.

> What's more worrying is people I speak to regularly now don't even know who he is. And if they do it's because of the toe cheese incident. I've known who Stallman is for a long time, but I had never heard about the toe cheese incident. I just looked it up. My reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n_NXSa0_Uc For anyone interested in the toe cheese incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ I'm not tr…

I think it's possibly one of the least interesting things about Stallman.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#55
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember in the 90s people all thought Stallman was crazy. And by people I mean developers, Linux users, people on usenet, etc. We all appreciated his contributions but at the end of the day just figured he was wearing a tin foil hat.

I didn’t think he was wearing a tinfoil hat. I agreed with RMS back then insofar as he saw things like TPM coming. However, he did not understand then and still does not understand that by using any device as complex as a computer, the user must trust _somebody_. His free software ideals lead him to think that if the user can read the source and modify it, he can trust it. But this is true of no one, regardless of hi…

I don't think Stallman would have an issue with a vendor being the default trusted entity on a system–but it must be possible to replace this with your own root of trust if you so desire. The issue is that companies hear the first part and go "oh boy, TPM time, let's lock out the user!"

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#56
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the course of my life the tinfoil to warranted concern has been the general trend. Mostly in areas where unchecked ambition for control, power, and influence have allowed greed to convince people to do evil unto others. The natural cost of information is the marginal cost of copying. It's the creation of new, useful information that needs to be incentivized; that's where UBI or some other hire more public works…

We need to do a lot better than UBI for FOSS to keep advancing. A caste of code monks who forgo a comfortable life to write free software from their Mom's basement, or a cabin in the woods, isn't nearly good enough. Might not be able to pay out a quarter million a year like the FAAAM crew does, but we need a bunch of jobs paying half that to write and maintain open source. If it isn't competitive with the other optio…

This is something I've been thinking about a lot. Most of my ideas have been variations of creating a scholarship fund where interest from the initial investment goes to pay for continued development on a specific project.

The big question though is how to run the investment without it being wasted on people aren't helping the project at all.

Some notes (I'm planning on eventually writing a blog post on this subject):

- You probably need to pay people differently depending on whether they're the maintainer or a minor contributor - There needs to be a balance of power between users and the maintainer. A simple balance could be, the maintainer is dictator for life (or until they lay down the mantle) but compensation is based on number of users. - Maybe compensation is done on a per-feature basis, e.g., users put a bounty on a feature and the interest money doubles that bounty.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#57
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't want to listen to Stallman because he talks about motivations. The number of times I've had people downvote me for pointing out all organizations will act to maximize profit regardless the cost to others is extraordinary. It doesn't matter if it's google, mozilla, microsoft or the fsf.

The FSF is a non-profit organization, so that motivation quite literally doesn't apply to them. All other regular corporations, yes. :)

Google. Mozilla. The FSF. Microsoft. IBM springs to mind. These will all have their time in the spotlight as tech darlings or villains.

You aren't using the Stallman Trick here. The fact some organisation or person seems good today is totally meaningless compared to what it is legally allowed to do, and what they have incentive to do.

It is a bit cynical, but assume people are going to do what the incentives push them to do and the world becomes a very simple and predictable place. The time to panic isn't when someone threatens you, it is when they have the means & incentive to threaten you. Run or fight then, not later on.

If the FSF gains power, it will abuse that power. Sooner or later. They will react to money just as much as the rest of us. Look at what happened to Mozilla.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#58
post #14

This is something Stallman[1] and others have talked about for a while now, with this article having been published in 2003[2]. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html [2] https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

I remember in the 90s people all thought Stallman was crazy. And by people I mean developers, Linux users, people on usenet, etc. We all appreciated his contributions but at the end of the day just figured he was wearing a tin foil hat.

Indeed. I do not agree with everything he says but he's right about a lot of things. It was only recently that I started to understand the value of computing freedom. To think he's been exploring these ideas since decades ago...

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#59
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FSF is a non-profit organization, so that motivation quite literally doesn't apply to them. All other regular corporations, yes. :)

It does. I remember when I said that Mozilla offering women's outreach was the start of the end for them and being called a misogynist for it. Their current market rate speaks for itself.

That's an interesting point.

Regardless of the initiative (could have been rural broadband) by expanding into these areas Mozilla's parent company said..

We have enough money for operations. This extra money will go to this good cause.

As someone who might donate I would hold off because they have more than enough. I could use my money directly to support a cause.

Not sure how a charity starts giving to another charity (unless that is what they specialize in). That strikes me as greedy. If you have enough don't ask for more. There are local charities who could use the money.

Re: The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's more worrying is people I speak to regularly now don't even know who he is. And if they do it's because of the toe cheese incident. I've known who Stallman is for a long time, but I had never heard about the toe cheese incident. I just looked it up. My reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n_NXSa0_Uc For anyone interested in the toe cheese incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ I'm not tr…

I think it's possibly one of the least interesting things about Stallman.

It's not that he did something weird that's interesting (everybody does weird stuff) - it's that he did it in public, on camera, while the focus of attention during some sort of exhibit.

It's interesting because it's unique. The only other person I can think of that would do something similar is Danny DeVito.

Or at least I think it's interesting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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