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Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

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Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#21

Post by ArmandGrillet »

slfnflctd wrote: post #7

This really is a good thing to keep in mind when it seems like the bad news keeps coming every day-- whether it be on the global/national stage, in your business or in your personal life. Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. Of course, knowing this doesn't help much when you're facing catastrophe that damages your own well being, and past performance is an unreliable pre…

> Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average.

For anyone interested about this topic, the book Factfulness describes why this is the case and why our society focuses on the bad news.

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#22

Post by Uupis »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #18
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. Overall, global temperatures are still slowly getting higher for everyone on average, too.

So, why bring this up? Why must everything be headed to disaster? Why is all good news always countered with a negative forecast of doom? I seek to understand.

> I seek to understand.

I can't speak for the parent poster, but I find that "things are getting better" and other forms of 'incessantly positive' narrative give me some degree of dissonance. The bad things don't cancel out the good, but the good things don't make up for the bad.

The times I find myself talking about it are when things seem especially bleak, and a given positive spin just turns out to be that last straw of annoyance. Pointing it out just seems to bring back some sense of reality, sort of bracing for when the next awful thing inevitably comes up.

Personally, I try to keep it in my private notes, but sometimes things spill out. It's not an attempt to bring others down.

Of course, this is comment is just as moot.

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#24

Post by [deleted] »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #14
slfnflctd wrote: post #7

This really is a good thing to keep in mind when it seems like the bad news keeps coming every day-- whether it be on the global/national stage, in your business or in your personal life. Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. Of course, knowing this doesn't help much when you're facing catastrophe that damages your own well being, and past performance is an unreliable pre…

> ... whether it be on the global/national stage, in your business or in your personal life. Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. ... the assumption that things are getting better may be correct on the collective level but even here it depends where your samples are coming from. a developing country struggling with desertification or disappearance of drinking water or fl…

[deleted]

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#25

Post by rmrfstar »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... whether it be on the global/national stage, in your business or in your personal life. Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. ... the assumption that things are getting better may be correct on the collective level but even here it depends where your samples are coming from. a developing country struggling with desertification or disappearance of drinking water or fl…

Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring. It's the opposite to TFA - everyone is living better than their parents did, the progress is visible between generations (between decades even). They know they still have problems, but they trust in their ability to deal with them like they're dealing with everything else.

> Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? ... it's inspiring.

Ah yes, that paradise in Xinjiang.

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#26

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... whether it be on the global/national stage, in your business or in your personal life. Overall, things in general are still slowly getting better for everyone on average. ... the assumption that things are getting better may be correct on the collective level but even here it depends where your samples are coming from. a developing country struggling with desertification or disappearance of drinking water or fl…

Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring. It's the opposite to TFA - everyone is living better than their parents did, the progress is visible between generations (between decades even). They know they still have problems, but they trust in their ability to deal with them like they're dealing with everything else.

> Have you spent any time at all in a developing country?

literally been living abroad since the early 90ies most of it in either very poor or developing countries.

> They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring.

I have seen this attitude also in Japan which isn't "developing".

If one generalizes we can say all of Asia (the "Tiger" nations) have been "high" on hope. Most of the attitude of locals during a decade in Asia which I experienced was very forward-looking and upbeat. Returning back to Europe was incredibly depressing since everyone was complaining (even they had everything)

IMO it's about perceived wealth because I saw the same in Europe (Croatia and Poland have very cheerful people compared to the South of France which is full of rich French and Brits and everyone is complaining).

When I spent time in Poland between 2005-2010 there was a running joke about "Poland can't even manage to do the financial crisis properly" (7% growth iirc so Poland would be a "depressive Slavic country" where everyone is upbeat. ofc don't ask the Polish because they joke about being the only country where people are even more complaining than Brits. But if you come from France, Germany, Belgium or other very West EU countries where the attitude is hostile towards new technologies and ideas in general then Poland is refreshingly upbeat).

agree with you about a lot of this is attitude and a shared sense of trust among citizens in their systems. if we take Japan again, that same shared trust ("yes-saying", never question your elderly or superior, or blind trust in authority) is what has led to Fukushima disaster. There is huge value in moaning and being critical about all things that promise an easy fix.

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#27

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

watwut wrote: post #19
marcus_holmes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring. It's the opposite to TFA - everyone is living better than their parents did, the progress is visible between generations (between decades even). They know they still have problems, but they trust in their ability to deal with them like they're dealing with everything else.

They are multiple wars countries that are definitely not moving toward better future. Like, there are wars and genocides going on right now. Those people are not be better off then previously. Syria is not better off, Libya is neither. Palestine is not moving toward shiny future. Yazidi are not better off nor other people in formerly ISIS areas. Especially women, but like, guys did not had it easy either. Not that Ku…

> Everyone is living better than their parents did is just not true.

in addition to these more extreme examples you listed, your statement even holds water for places in the West (e.g. US).

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#28

Post by marcus_holmes »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #27
watwut wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are multiple wars countries that are definitely not moving toward better future. Like, there are wars and genocides going on right now. Those people are not be better off then previously. Syria is not better off, Libya is neither. Palestine is not moving toward shiny future. Yazidi are not better off nor other people in formerly ISIS areas. Especially women, but like, guys did not had it easy either. Not that Ku…

> Everyone is living better than their parents did is just not true. in addition to these more extreme examples you listed, your statement even holds water for places in the West (e.g. US).

So basically there's three groups of countries:

- Developing countries where things are visibly getting better every year

- Developing countries where there is a crisis or war of some sort to stop things getting better every year

- Developed countries, that the TFA talks about, where there is improvement but it's slow and not apparent.

As a rough estimate, of the ~190 countries in the world, the first group is by far the largest, and the second group is by far the smallest. Am I wrong?

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#29

Post by marcus_holmes »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #26
marcus_holmes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring. It's the opposite to TFA - everyone is living better than their parents did, the progress is visible between generations (between decades even). They know they still have problems, but they trust in their ability to deal with them like they're dealing with everything else.

> Have you spent any time at all in a developing country? literally been living abroad since the early 90ies most of it in either very poor or developing countries. > They're so high on hope and change it's inspiring. I have seen this attitude also in Japan which isn't "developing". If one generalizes we can say all of Asia (the "Tiger" nations) have been "high" on hope. Most of the attitude of locals during a decade…

cool, you know what I'm talking about then :)

and yes, I agree about the authoritarian mindset being bad for a lot of things. But that's the culture - you can't impose western values on a people that don't share the same underlying assumptions about humanity. That's the thing that got to me most: the people I talked to about it genuinely don't believe that "all people are created equal". If you don't believe that, then democracy makes no sense at all.

Re: Lots of overnight tragedies, no overnight miracles

#30

Post by marcus_holmes »

Uupis wrote: post #22
marcus_holmes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, why bring this up? Why must everything be headed to disaster? Why is all good news always countered with a negative forecast of doom? I seek to understand.

> I seek to understand. I can't speak for the parent poster, but I find that "things are getting better" and other forms of 'incessantly positive' narrative give me some degree of dissonance. The bad things don't cancel out the good, but the good things don't make up for the bad. The times I find myself talking about it are when things seem especially bleak, and a given positive spin just turns out to be that last st…

thanks for sharing :)

So you see the world as definitely getting worse every year, and any news or indicator that it's improving is just a blip, and annoying because it gives people hope when there is none. Is that right?

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