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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#31

Post by silentsea90 »

bigbubba wrote: post #9
mathnovice wrote: post #5

Learning of (keyword of) concepts and ideas is fun but the reason schools exist is because most learning is a grind. Learning to draw well, learning a language, learning an instrument, and even learning math and logic require going through the grind of learning and repetition. The grind is only harder if you don't have a good book or teacher because the practice you do could potentially be actively harmful (or useles…

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process. I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity…

Types of fun: Type 1: Fun while performing the activity Type 2: Bad while performing the activity, fun in hindsight Type 3: Bad while performing the activity, bad in hindsight

I would argue that Type 2 is desirable but doesn't fit in this framework.

source: https://www.rei.com/blog/climb/fun-scale

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#32

Post by radu_floricica »

bawolff wrote: post #25
zepto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment seems at odds with the current research: “the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80%.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

But is IQ (beyond a minimum level) really correlated with the type of success being discussed here?

Both brothers are software engineers, so I'd say IQ is relevant for this particular discussion thread.

Whether it's relevant for the main topic... that's an interesting question. Very much so. But I don't dare speculate, and I don't have data.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#33

Post by abfan1127 »

ohazi wrote: post #23
t0mbstone wrote: post #7

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

I can see homeschooling being potentially more interesting/engaging for a certain kind of student after the basics are out of the way, but this: > He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10. to me, is fucking terrifying . All of the people I know who did better on their own than in a classroom were able to do so because they could gobble up half a library in a weekend. I think you need to be able to read…

having met a ton of fully grown adults who have offspring, near as I can tell, most people are functionally illiterate. While they probably can read, most choose not to read anything longer than a tweet. I coach in a local sports league. I send an email at the beginning of each season with nice bulleted sections about schedules, uniforms, etc. After I send that email, I spend the next week answering questions to responses to replies from that email. All answers are in that email they are responding to.

TLDR - just because someone can read, doesn't mean they will, and my experience is that they won't.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#34

Post by TameAntelope »

nemo1618 wrote: post #17
bigbubba wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process. I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity…

This is true on its face for anyone who's spent hours and hours trying to beat a tough level of a video game -- we even call it "grinding" (at least in some contexts, namely RPGs), and to some extent it's not really "fun," but it also has a satisfying and compulsive aspect that drives you onward despite the challenge. I can't recall public education ever stirring the same sort of feeling in me (and I did quite well i…

Pleasure vs. satisfaction. Grinding is not pleasurable (in fact quite frustrating at times), but the satisfaction of completing the challenge may be more sustainable as a source of happiness.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#35

Post by bawolff »

grawprog wrote: post #22
bigbubba wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process. I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity…

>It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? That's the thing though, even with something you enjoy you will, or should hopefully, hit 'the grind'. That point where it gets hard and you force yourself to keep going even through.the parts you don't enjoy. School forces you to do this, if you're teaching yourself something, you need to force yourself to do this. I can't count the number of times i…

Ancedotal, but all that sounds pretty foreign to me. I don't really think i learn like that.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#36

Post by walshemj »

ohazi wrote: post #23
t0mbstone wrote: post #7

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

I can see homeschooling being potentially more interesting/engaging for a certain kind of student after the basics are out of the way, but this: > He didn't even learn how to read until he was around 10. to me, is fucking terrifying . All of the people I know who did better on their own than in a classroom were able to do so because they could gobble up half a library in a weekend. I think you need to be able to read…

A lot of nordic countries don't teach reading until 7 or so

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#37

Post by TrinaryWorksToo »

radu_floricica wrote: post #26
ramraj07 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence is not hereditary for the most part, and there's a huge environmental component to it. Clearly this household had the right mix of freedom and strictness to encourage development of creative intelligent thinking. Probably rubs off of adults with same attitudes. Of course it's not 100% I'm pretty sure if OP had more siblings one of them would be bound to be dumb as a rock.

Source? I'm pretty sure intelligence is well over half hereditary. AFAIK, most of what we can do to increase people's intelligence is make sure they get proper nutrition as kids. Over that, we can at most spend lots of money on educational programs for really small increases in IQ (though of course education is not just about IQ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBc7qBS1Ujo

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#38

Post by barry-cotter »

ramraj07 wrote: post #20
joncp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you and your brother are highly intelligent and maybe didn't really need school to absorb the stuff you needed. I wonder how that approach would work with a more average child.

Intelligence is not hereditary for the most part, and there's a huge environmental component to it. Clearly this household had the right mix of freedom and strictness to encourage development of creative intelligent thinking. Probably rubs off of adults with same attitudes. Of course it's not 100% I'm pretty sure if OP had more siblings one of them would be bound to be dumb as a rock.

> Intelligence is not hereditary for the most part, and there's a huge environmental component to it.

This isn’t true. Every psychological trait has a large heritable component. The lowest value I’ve ever seen for heritability of intelligence is on the order of 0.6 and 0.8 is just as common.

> Genetic Influence on Human Psychological Traits

> There is now a large body of evidence that supports the conclusion that individual differences in most, if not all, reliably measured psychological traits, normal and abnormal, are substantively influenced by genetic factors. This fact has important implications for research and theory building in psychology, as evidence of genetic influence unleashes a cascade of questions regarding the sources of variance in such traits. A brief list of those questions is provided, and representative findings regarding genetic and environmental influences are presented for the domains of personality, intelligence, psycho- logical interests, psychiatric illnesses, and social attitudes. These findings are consistent with those reported for the traits of other species and for many human physical traits, suggesting that they may represent a general biological phenomenon.

...

> own positive correlation between tests of mental ability, the evidentiary base for the general intelligence factor. This value is typically about .30. The genetic correlation be- tween such tests is, however, much higher, typically closer to .80.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.397...

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#39

Post by lostcolony »

chrisBob wrote: post #28

I am sure unschooling works out well for some people. I appreciate giving students some flexibility, but I think there really is a standard core that most people should learn. I went to a good engineering school for college, but they also require everyone to take 3 years of history, 3 years of english, 2 semesters of a foreign language, a psychology course, ... If it was left up to me I would not have taken most of t…

A lot of unschooling is predicated on the idea that if you're not forced to learn things, you will be more open to wanting to learn them.

Certainly, in my own life that has held true. I learned to read when I was a kid because I saw my parents doing it, and engaging in it taught me to love it. A lot of math I learned early on just as I was growing up (I figured out multiplication on my own, for instance). But by the time school started 'teaching' me things, I chafed at it. I hated being told what to learn, hated having to follow the classroom's pace, etc.

The same has held true in my adult life too; given a problem to solve or an interesting thing to explore I'll learn. Even things I -hated- in high school and college (such as foreign languages), I am engaging in learning on my own as an adult because I -want- to.

Given a better environment, most kids will want to learn. The problem is school forces it on kids, without investing in showing the kid why they would want to learn it in the first place (i.e., the reason "when will we ever use this?!" is so stereotypical)

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#40

Post by mdorazio »

t0mbstone wrote: post #7

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

Note that missing from your assessment here is an honest analysis of the alternative. I.e. where would you and your brother have ended up if you had stayed in school and gone the traditional college path? You say you're making $150k now as a software engineer, but there's a damn good chance if you had stayed in school and gotten a CS degree in college you would be making a lot more than that now (and earlier in your career as well).

As others have mentioned, you also have to consider how few career paths offer the kind of "no formal training" entry bar that programming does. What if your brother had hated computers and realized at age 22 that he wanted to be a doctor? He'd be years behind his peers.

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