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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#331

Post by cwhiz »

starfallg wrote: post #267
treeman79 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Note the words "reasonable", here meaning "proportionate". We're not advocating mob rule here. We're asking you to wear a mask, not to kill your first-born.

Just wear a mask, eh? Tell that to the entire cinema industry. Tell that to the 89% of the hospitality industry in NYC that can’t pay rent.

Mask mandates are actually the least authoritarian and least enforced thing the US has done. We’re limiting actual constitutional rights, selectively, to stop the spread of covid. Despite the fact that we effectively flattened the curve months ago.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#332

Post by leetcrew »

christophilus wrote: post #259
leetcrew wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cult (worship) is the root of culture "cult" is indeed a substring of "culture", but the etymology is likely the other way around. both come from the latin verb "colo", which concretely means something like "till" or "care for" (in the sense of agriculture). it's used more abstractly to mean "worship", but this likely comes from the idea of caring for / tending to an actual effigy or temple of a deity.

Worship (cultus) is a part of the etemology in most places I’ve read, but yes cultivation is primary. Either way, the main point stands. A central part of nearly all cultures throughout space and time is some sort of local cult. And that was not respected by the Russians. It’s rarely been respected by modern empires.

cultus, which is itself a participle of colo.

I don't disagree with the core point. the rosy image of the USSR respecting local culture does not exactly mesh with my understanding of the history either (though this could be my own ignorance). as an ex-classics major, I simply can't resist the opportunity to engage in some etymological pedantry :)

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#333

Post by celdon25 »

starfallg wrote: post #275
nickthemagicman wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's 3 billion people in this world that believe there's an invisible man in the sky that grants you wishes if you pray hard enough. I want science and data to backup policy decisions and not policy based on the "vast majority" of fear driven mental idiots believing something. That's how you get crusades and genocides. In this 'demon haunted' world science is indeed a candle in the dark.

It funny you mentioned this because the "science and data" overwhelmingly supports wearing a mask to cut transmission, which is also a major factor in why a overwhelming majority of people support wearing one. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083 https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-f... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/ https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4179…

What's telling is that in your original post, you stated: > Why did it take months for the government to be recommending face masks?"

But all of these links you posted are dated after the April 3 recommendation by the CDC for the public to wear masks. https://www.livescience.com/cdc-recommends-face-masks-corona...

"Based on the best evidence available at the time, it was not deemed that that would have a significant impact on whether or not a healthy person wearing a mask would contract COVID-19," Adams said."

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#334

Post by nickthemagicman »

cyphar wrote: post #325
nickthemagicman wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I just said it's clear that masks stop particles. That part is obvious. What's not clear is if applying a plague vector directly on your face with a virus that remains active on surfaces for days is efficacious. Is it efficacious at the community level? It's basic epidemiology. You could be more pro-science and consider these things.

Here's a study from the original SARS epidemic showing that people who had known contact with infected people there was a 70% lower chance of infection when they wore masks[1]. At this point, arguing that masks don't work is absolutely taking the piss -- you only need to look at countries like Japan (which made the political decision to not do widespread lockdowns unlike many other countries in Asia) to see that wide…

Did you read that study? Or did you just read the first paragraph summary? I'm seriously asking. Because if you read that study...which is a SURVEY of 100 or so people.. you would clearly not be using that as your bulletproof evidence that masks work.

Did you just read the title?

"""At this point, arguing that masks don't work is absolutely taking the piss""'

Fanatical beliefs with no evidence?

Is Corona a cult?

I look at countries like Sweden and Norway and know that masks mandates don't work.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#335

Post by nickthemagicman »

TedPetrou wrote: post #327
starfallg wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It funny you mentioned this because the "science and data" overwhelmingly supports wearing a mask to cut transmission, which is also a major factor in why a overwhelming majority of people support wearing one. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083 https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-f... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/ https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4179…

There's not a single western industrialized nation or state that can be pointed to now as a mask success story. There were a few countries in eastern europe (specifically czechia) that were heralded as a primary reason for controlling covid in the spring. We now know that this apparent good result was not because of masks, but because of geography. Czechia is ranked #1 in the world in cases / million in the last week…

Thank you for this. I knew 93% of Americans support masks and we're about to enter a third wave in America.

I didn't realize masks were that ineffective in other countries as well.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#336

Post by noncoml »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

Sweden you say? https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-shifts-away-no-lockdo...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#337

Post by babesh »

jjeaff wrote: post #306
babesh wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't direct democracy. That is a republican form of government. Whenever you have representatives instead of citizens governing themselves, you can have situations where the government saves the citizenry from themselves but also situations where the representatives exploit the government for themselves. Both cases have happened throughout history and are happening with the coronavirus. In the US, Fauci was ini…

Fair enough on most of those points, but I wouldn't blame democrats on the slow response. It just so happens that coastal urban centers are blue and were hit earlier and harder than anyone else. The gravest political failures in regards to the pandemic have been the administration and a few of its most ardent political supporters. (Many republican governors have acted in good faith to protect their state). And that f…

I think both parties did that. The difference is mostly in the scale of their powers. The administration controlled the federal government and thus had both greater powers and a bigger microphone.

Governors controlled each state. You had Democratic governors and representatives acting just as badly. It is just that they had less scope to do damage. A governor can usually directly harm only their own state and not other states.

Some Republican governors opened lockdowns probably too quickly. Cuomo basically spread covid-19 into nursing homes by sending patients back into nursing homes. de Blasio resisted a NYC lockdown probably increasing its spread.

I would fault the administration on a lack of a coordinated response between the federal and state levels. I wonder if this was from a fear on being blamed for deaths and that they wanted to shift responsibility and blame onto states.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#338

Post by noncoml »

cwhiz wrote: post #329
noncoml wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy. If you think that making you wear a mask attacks your freedom you are a moron. Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons. So I think you comparison to Sweden in a bit unfortunate. Also the virus was not the reason for the corrosion of the democracy where it happened, it…

> Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy. You’re really understating what has happened and what is going on. > Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons. When Mayor De Blasio and Governor Cuomo limit church gatherings, but not protests, what would you call that? If you don’t think the rules are being unevenly…

But it’s not the virus that caused the corrosion and the corrosion will not go away if you stop following the rules to help stop the spreading. That’s all I am saying.

As an outsider I do agree with you that democracy in US is going through a small crisis t he last few years, and in my opinion both parties are responsible for that by encouraging hate and trying to polarize people. And both parties are playing games with COVID rules which is a shame.

However by being a mask denier you don’t help fight the corrosion, you just become a pawn in their game.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#339

Post by BurningFrog »

whimsicalism wrote: post #234
BurningFrog wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an epic side track, but the argument you could make is that Germany's choice at the time was between Nazi-ism and Stalin controlled communism. Liberal democracy was a distant third option that had no real chance. We know the Nazi option turned out very very bad. But it's possible a German/Soviet Stalinist block would have been even worse.

> We know the Nazi option turned out very very bad. But it's possible a German/Soviet Stalinist block would have been even worse. Say what you want about Soviet-caused famine, but they never shipped people in trains to gas chambers for the express purpose of exterminating them. Pretty contrived and callous to say that choosing the Nazis might have been the right choice.

Stalin did plenty of genocides of his own, and murdered far more of his own citizens than Hitler did.

If your criteria is that the genocide has to be conducted with a similar train system etc as the Holocaust, you're probably not serious about this discussion.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#340

Post by nickthemagicman »

treeman79 wrote: post #316
starfallg wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the words "reasonable", here meaning "proportionate". We're not advocating mob rule here. We're asking you to wear a mask, not to kill your first-born.

I was in the middle of treatments when lock downs started. Then I lost Access to all my doctors. Thankfully things worked out eventually, but had some bad scares. So yea, Lockdowns put me personally at risk. And since I have young daughters that puts them at risk for being homeless.

No one cares about your suffering and your daughters AS LONG AS GRANNY IS SAFE!!!
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