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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#321

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

whimsicalism wrote: post #303
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with a Junta as a form of government. Often times military governments are required to transition to a democratic one. I mean half of south america basically had them. They are effective forms of government required to retain order and stability so that democracy can ensue. The reason we don't see them be successful in african countries because they are often very poor, have immense cultural is…

> required to retain order and stability There've been numerous transitions to democracy that have occurred without juntas. Your dog-whistling about cultural issues in Africa ignores the failure of juntas in places as diverse as Greece, Burma, and Egypt. Ultimately though, the merits of juntas in general are not relevant. Do you agree with Bolsonaro that Brazil would have been better off if the military had disappear…

Yes and yes

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#322

Post by varjag »

mrkramer wrote: post #116
jacquesm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World War II has been over for a while and Germany has a scientist as the leader of the country. Human rights in Germany improved as a result of WWII because Germany - unlike any other country - has seen first hand what will happen when you let human rights slide.

I was referring to the guy who said "Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights." My conclusion was that education does not equal to rationality with regards to human rights and that democracy is not good but it is the best system we had so far.

I'm the guy you refer to. You are confusing broad education with STEM. It is very possible to be poorly educated while being OK at math or engineering.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#323

Post by romanoderoma »

inops wrote: post #310
romanoderoma wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry I'm in my fourties, still functioning and while in Italy, France and Spain the virus was causing havoc, Downing street was still taking time to prepare an "adequate response" trying to "find a balance to not take Draconian measures" We've all seen the consequences of their choices At one point they also talked about "letting the virus spread through the entire population and take it on the chin" Either John…

You may not be ignoring things with regard to Covid, but you're certainly ignoring context to misquote someone you don't like.

I think you're certainly ignoring facts because you don't like that UK handled covid crisis badly.

Get over it, the empire has fallen, UK is the ghost of what it once was and it's run by incompetents.

I don't have to dislike Johnson to know he is wrong,the numbers alone are enough to judge his actions.

Johnson said himself that "covid has been a disaster for UK" and it has left "the worst confirmed death toll in Europe" anyway.

He failed at protecting people and at the same time at protecting the economy.

If that's the best UK can do, it's really not that good...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#324

Post by romanoderoma »

pelasaco wrote: post #245
ufo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just "2nd ammendment" propaganda that he borrowed from the United States. It's patently clear that he'd go for a totalitarian takeover himself if he could. He just hasn't yet because he did not have the means to do so. https://piaui.folha.uol.com.br/materia/vou-intervir/

> It's patently clear that he'd go for a totalitarian takeover himself if he could. He just hasn't yet because he did not have the means to do so. if the democracy there has eroded why he doesn't have the means to do so? What is blocking him to takeover? Case closed.

> if the democracy there has eroded why he doesn't have the means to do so? What is blocking him to takeover?

That his lies have been exposed.

Especially regarding the unlawful exclusion of Lua from presidential elections.

But he will try again, that's for sure.

Do you really think that previous dictatorship happened overnight?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#325

Post by cyphar »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #320
jjeaff wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are going to have to go way back in the medical literature to find many peer reviewed studies on masks. For the same reason it might be hard to find recent studies proving that blood letting is not efficacious. It's basic physics and statistics. A germ of a certain size can only fit through a certain size whole. Masks of any type will reduce the number of particles and thus reduce your chances of contracting. Sam…

Like I just said it's clear that masks stop particles. That part is obvious. What's not clear is if applying a plague vector directly on your face with a virus that remains active on surfaces for days is efficacious. Is it efficacious at the community level? It's basic epidemiology. You could be more pro-science and consider these things.

Here's a study from the original SARS epidemic showing that people who had known contact with infected people there was a 70% lower chance of infection when they wore masks[1]. At this point, arguing that masks don't work is absolutely taking the piss -- you only need to look at countries like Japan (which made the political decision to not do widespread lockdowns unlike many other countries in Asia) to see that widespread mask usage clearly works.

> Supporting the validity of this finding, there was a dose-response effect: by multivariable analysis, persons who always wore masks had a 70% lower risk of being diagnosed with clinical SARS compared with those who never wore masks, and persons with intermittent mask use had a 60% lower risk. Many persons who wore masks in the community did not use N-95 or similar highly efficient filtration devices, which have been recommended for use in the hospital setting.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322931/

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#326

Post by romanoderoma »

chrisseaton wrote: post #91
notreallytrue wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he is in the same ballpark of the other 3, denial of the covid dangers, a strong sentiment of economy over people lives and the call to sacrifice Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going? I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.

> a strong sentiment of economy over people lives Huh? No you've got it backwards - the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy - the opposite of what you've claimed. https://www.ft.com/content/7bb3e4b5-7dc7-464d-904d-aee5f7eb4... > Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to…

> the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy

He failed very hard at both then.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#327

Post by TedPetrou »

starfallg wrote: post #275
nickthemagicman wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's 3 billion people in this world that believe there's an invisible man in the sky that grants you wishes if you pray hard enough. I want science and data to backup policy decisions and not policy based on the "vast majority" of fear driven mental idiots believing something. That's how you get crusades and genocides. In this 'demon haunted' world science is indeed a candle in the dark.

It funny you mentioned this because the "science and data" overwhelmingly supports wearing a mask to cut transmission, which is also a major factor in why a overwhelming majority of people support wearing one. https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083 https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-f... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/ https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4179…

There's not a single western industrialized nation or state that can be pointed to now as a mask success story. There were a few countries in eastern europe (specifically czechia) that were heralded as a primary reason for controlling covid in the spring.

We now know that this apparent good result was not because of masks, but because of geography. Czechia is ranked #1 in the world in cases / million in the last week and #3 in deaths / million (and its numbers are still climbing). Every single eastern european nation had low cases/deaths in the spring and now all of them are having their first large surge.

It's abundantly clear that cloth masks, as a whole, do not play a major role in how the virus spreads in a country.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#328

Post by [deleted] »

romanoderoma wrote: post #326
chrisseaton wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a strong sentiment of economy over people lives Huh? No you've got it backwards - the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy - the opposite of what you've claimed. https://www.ft.com/content/7bb3e4b5-7dc7-464d-904d-aee5f7eb4... > Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to…

> the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy He failed very hard at both then.

[deleted]

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#329

Post by cwhiz »

noncoml wrote: post #138
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy. If you think that making you wear a mask attacks your freedom you are a moron. Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons. So I think you comparison to Sweden in a bit unfortunate. Also the virus was not the reason for the corrosion of the democracy where it happened, it…

> Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy.

You’re really understating what has happened and what is going on.

> Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons.

When Mayor De Blasio and Governor Cuomo limit church gatherings, but not protests, what would you call that?

If you don’t think the rules are being unevenly enforced, and for political reasons, then you aren’t paying attention.

And if you don’t think it is the people who are calling for this uneven enforcement, you’re paying even less attention.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#330

Post by cwhiz »

starfallg wrote: post #141
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

Common sense, coordinated, and effective.

And what if I don’t want to do what your common sense suggestions say I should? Or I disagree with you in regard to what is common sense.

Now we are at the fundamental issue.

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