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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#241

Post by coffeefirst »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

This is basically impossible to parse out because HN is global, includes people from countries with various levels of trust and cultural acceptance for intrusive public health mandates.

If you look locally, where we’re at least disagreeing about the same things, I saw a lot of anxiety and a fierce debate about what measures were appropriate, but it was a lot more around whether it was premature to open indoor dining.

Nobody is rooting for the virus.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#242

Post by notreallytrue »

pelasaco wrote: post #222
notreallytrue wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period Never did. I compared the military coups, which Bolsonaro is rooting for, undeniably, to the military government the nazi-fascists had over Germany and Italy and then Europe. They came to power thanks to the military support. As every far right movement usually does. Bolsonaro is praising and rallying for a return of the military dictatorship. He was there, i…

> So did thousands of former SS officials who went to live there after WW2, protected and kept hidden. Bolsonaro helped them too? > Sao Pauol has a much higher crime rate and 10 to 15 times worse homicide rate than Berlin, you might feel safer, but you are not safer. I don't know if you understood what I meant, but I'm Jewish and because of antisemitism, which we have back in cities like in Berlin or Paris, I don't f…

> Bolsonaro helped them too?

He's giving them medals now.

> I don't know if you understood what I meant, but I'm Jewish and because of antisemitism, which we have back in cities like in Berlin or Paris, I don't feel there safe there as I felt in Sao Paulo.

I don't know if you understood that it's your feeling, not a fact.

There are more nazi and nazi heirs living in Brazil than in the rest of the World.

If you feel safer in Sao Paulo than in Berlin, it means you are part of an elite that is not affected by Sao Paulo criminality.

“Massacre the Jews, God, hit them with your sword, for they have left God, they have left the nations. ... God, what you have done in World War II, you must do again, this is what we ask for in our prayers to you: Justice, justice, justice!”” Pastor Tupirani da Hora Lores shouted at dozens of congregants earlier this month at his Geracao Jesus Cristo church"

Have you got news of something like that in Berlin?

Did Bolsonaro said something about it?

> You don't idea about the CSU/CDU parties (party from Germany) in Germany. But again, no reference, just the socket puppet in the internet saying.

I sure have, I'm Italian, part of my family moved to Germany soon after the war and lived in Berlin myself.

Frau Merkel surely didn't ever support anti-semitic or anti democratic groups or movements.

Anyway CSU and CDU are two very different beasts, just putting them together shows that you are just trying to spew propaganda.

> You are trolling with a lot of "factoids" to support your agenda

I have no agenda other than stopping your BS about Bolsonaro the great democratic president.

He is not.

He is a dangerous man.

With dangerous ideas.

> What make you angry are stuff like:

LOL

No, it doesn't.

North Korea style propaganda doesn't affect me, sorry.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#243

Post by smallnamespace »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #219
starfallg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're already doing this. Really? Because all the video's I've seen indicate politicians of a certain political persuasion (and their family members) doing the utmost to avoid wearing masks in situations that they should have known better. >Until when? The shutdowns were supposed to be about making sure that hospitals have time to prepare, research has time to be done, society has time to adapt. This has already tak…

> Stop building this up into a strawman. Nobody is arguing that lockdowns should last forever. But this is exactly the mindset that I'd characterize as an erosion of "respect for human rights". When the government proposes extraordinary restrictions, it's their responsibility to clearly define how long the restrictions need to last. Answers like "until it's safe" or "stop building this into a strawman" should not sat…

On the flip side, the more dangerous and difficult a situation, the more difficult it is to give honest and accurate timelines.

In the extreme, your demand would doom governments to fail to manage any serious crisis.

Sometimes bad things happen and we do need to trust each other in order to fix things.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#244

Post by pelasaco »

notreallytrue wrote: post #228
koolba wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the opposite. He’s literally arming the population to prevent a future totalitarian takeover: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/americas/guns-brazi... Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.

Who is receiving the guns? Mussolini did the same thing, he knew very well guns were not going to opposition but to his supporters that used them to kill or oppress his opponents. The rhetoric of "citizens that simply want to defend themselves" is an empty one.

Hitler banned Jews from possessing guns in 1938.

Russia passed gun control legislation in 1929 coinciding with the beginning of Stalins rule.

Italy's current gun control laws date to the fascist period, notably the public safety act of 1931.

Cuba's gun laws are classified as highly restrictive.

How it looks in Brazil after the decree:

"Getting permission to buy a gun in Brazil still requires a lengthy process — including a mental health assessment and a criminal-background check — that can drag on for months. But shooting ranges and gun stores started to see an uptick in business, even before the new rules went into effect."

So you can have a gun at home, but no carry is permitted.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#245

Post by pelasaco »

ufo wrote: post #127
koolba wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the opposite. He’s literally arming the population to prevent a future totalitarian takeover: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/americas/guns-brazi... Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.

That's just "2nd ammendment" propaganda that he borrowed from the United States. It's patently clear that he'd go for a totalitarian takeover himself if he could. He just hasn't yet because he did not have the means to do so. https://piaui.folha.uol.com.br/materia/vou-intervir/

> It's patently clear that he'd go for a totalitarian takeover himself if he could. He just hasn't yet because he did not have the means to do so.

if the democracy there has eroded why he doesn't have the means to do so? What is blocking him to takeover? Case closed.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#246

Post by mrkramer »

watwut wrote: post #162
mrkramer wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how Hitler winning 1932 German elections improved human rights in Germany and overall Europe. Instead it turned into dictatorship, tyranny and mass murder. And you can not say that Germany at the time was not rational and not educated populace. It was a Physics mecca of the world with people like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger and Albert Einstein. My point is education does not equal to…

Germany 1932 was massive mess. It was not rational place in a lot of ways. It was also quite violent place. Physics and art mecca of few Germany cities were outliers within Germany, not the norm.

"Germany 1932 was massive mess. It was not rational place in a lot of ways. It was also quite violent place."

I know, there was hyperinflation in 1920s and there were violent conflicts and confrontations between right nationalists and left communists. I think huge negative influence was Soviet Union exporting communist revolutions in European countries which eventually escalated to civil war in Spain and almost a civil war in Germany. But Hitler and his ideology were a product of First World War and not a product of unstable Germany or unstable Europe.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#247

Post by babesh »

babesh wrote: post #240
babesh wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't direct democracy. That is a republican form of government. Whenever you have representatives instead of citizens governing themselves, you can have situations where the government saves the citizenry from themselves but also situations where the representatives exploit the government for themselves. Both cases have happened throughout history and are happening with the coronavirus. In the US, Fauci was ini…

We live in a system with groups jockeying for political power. The groups continue to maintain power as long as they continue to convince enough of the populace to vote for them. They do this in various ways. One way is to form a coalition of subgroups and promising such subgroups favors. Another way is to convince the populace that they are all in it together. One favorite technique is to raise the spectre of an ext…

One thing to note is that the current situation is ripe for massive political power gains since so many things have been thrown into flux. That is why both sides are playing so hard right now. There is much power to be gained and that power will be locked in till the next big change.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#248

Post by Spearchucker »

refurb wrote: post #98
Spearchucker wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. There was a book from ages ago called The Ugly American which caused a big stir in US political circles because of the way it decried US foreign policy. It contrasted the US approach (dinner parties in the Embassy) withe the Russians - who learned the local languages, respected local cultural nuances and customs, and taught locals how to more effectively till their lands. That contrast caused a huge stir in…

The Ugly American was a work of fiction.

Not sure I get the point. Yes it was a political novel, a piece of fiction. It was however, based on fact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#249

Post by [deleted] »

stormbrew wrote: post #197
thebeefytaco wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

Are all legal restrictions on what clothes you should wear in public authoritarian to you? Many of them exist to make sure you don't die (eg. food prep/serving sanitation, medical practice) of preventable causes. If "authoritarian" includes every rule that affects how we interact with each other in public you've pretty much gone into nihilistic territory it seems to me.

[deleted]

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#250

Post by romanoderoma »

pelasaco wrote: post #244
notreallytrue wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is receiving the guns? Mussolini did the same thing, he knew very well guns were not going to opposition but to his supporters that used them to kill or oppress his opponents. The rhetoric of "citizens that simply want to defend themselves" is an empty one.

Hitler banned Jews from possessing guns in 1938. Russia passed gun control legislation in 1929 coinciding with the beginning of Stalins rule. Italy's current gun control laws date to the fascist period, notably the public safety act of 1931. Cuba's gun laws are classified as highly restrictive. How it looks in Brazil after the decree: "Getting permission to buy a gun in Brazil still requires a lengthy process — inclu…

> Italy's current gun control laws date to the fascist period, notably the public safety act of 1931.

9 years after Fascism raised to power and abolished democracy in Italy.

BTW you are not reading it well, what the Royal Decree No. 773 of 1931 established was that production of arms had to be licensed by the regime and that armed military parade were abolished UNLESS EXPLICITLY AUTHORIZED

Guess who gave the authorizations?

Exactly! the fascist prefects!

After all fascism went to power by marching to Rome in a military armed parade...

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