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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#201

Post by starfallg »

sokoloff wrote: post #185
starfallg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

> People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). It’s hard to find persistent daylight between those two things. (For the record, I wear masks outside and in grocery stores, which are the only shops I go to. I find this at least 75% common sense.) When it comes time though to force some…

When the vast majority of people agree that we should do something reasonable for the common good and you disagree loudly while flailing your arms about, then it doesn't make you a defender of liberty, it makes you an obnoxious moron.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#202

Post by futurehero »

How many will die if every human alive today gets Covid-19, and will those who survive be able to repopulate the Earth, or will the percentage lost be a barley noticeable blip when individuals in the year 3000 look at the chart of human population growth from the dawn of humanity to their current age, assuming our species survives that long? If a blip, this has all been much ado about nothing.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#203

Post by babesh »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #192
sokoloff wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). It’s hard to find persistent daylight between those two things. (For the record, I wear masks outside and in grocery stores, which are the only shops I go to. I find this at least 75% common sense.) When it comes time though to force some…

This is a take against all laws if you prop it up a bit more. It doesn‘t make sense. The people enacting these laws are democratically elected. „Common sense“ in this case is not arbitrary. It is the culmination of the „common senses“ if all politicians that were elected by their citizens. This is not undemocratic, it is democracy in its purest form. At some point in dire situations, as a government, you have to save…

That isn't direct democracy. That is a republican form of government. Whenever you have representatives instead of citizens governing themselves, you can have situations where the government saves the citizenry from themselves but also situations where the representatives exploit the government for themselves. Both cases have happened throughout history and are happening with the coronavirus.

In the US, Fauci was initially anti-mask to preserve supplies for health care officers. This theoretically saved citizenry from themselves but at the cost of long term trust in institutions.

Democrat led governments lengthened lockdowns for political gain. Republican led governments shortened lockdowns for political gain.

- Democrats point at the increased infection rates in Republican states as proof that lockdown measures are still necessary but ignore much lower death rates we are seeing.

- Republicans point to the economic devastation that lockdowns cause as cause to end lockdowns without proper planning to limit infection.

- Democrats push for very large stimulus over loosening lockdowns without discussing the long term costs of adding so much to the deficit and the long term costs to the economy.

- Democrats hoist blame at Trump but ignore how certain Democratic run states were some of the worst at initially handling the coronavirus.

- Trump overhypes the availability of vaccines and underplayed the virus.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#204

Post by romanoderoma »

inops wrote: post #88
notreallytrue wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he is in the same ballpark of the other 3, denial of the covid dangers, a strong sentiment of economy over people lives and the call to sacrifice Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going? I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.

I've not heard "denial", a la Trump, from Johnson. That's the trade off every country is making: dangers of the virus Vs long term effects of response to the virus. It's a balancing act. What would you prefer, wanton destruction of everyone's livelihoods in overreaction? Not everyone is lucky enough to have a job that can be done from home, such as us on this site (typically). Every country is trying to avoid shutter…

> I've not heard "denial", a la Trump, from Johnson.

He literally said it himself when he recovered from COVID-19

> A few hours later, he received a positive test result, and the next day he made a video statement in which he said he was self-isolating, but would continue to work and lead Britain’s coronavirus response.

> But during the next nine days, as he worked in isolation in an apartment above his official Downing Street residence and office, his condition deteriorated, with persistent symptoms including a high temperature.

> Later, he said he had been in denial and continued to work despite feeling groggy and “pretty rough”, until doctors told him firmly to go to hospital.

Boris Johnson was forced to change attitude, but he didn't believe covid-19 was a life threatening disease.

> The quote from Johnson isn't talking about what you're inferring. It was a broad statement of what was going to happen

If he hadn't been in denial he could have acted sooner and save a lot of those people that instead died.

It's the PM responsibility and anybody else.

If we were talking about Italy, for example, I would tell you that 60% of the covid related deaths are a responsibility of Attilio Fontana, the president of Regional Council of Lombardy who left elderly to die in nursing homes while he was subcontracting the supply of medical equipment to his brother in law and when journalists found out he tried to repay the debt using his own money from a Swiss account (yes, he has secret money in Switzerland)

But in UK B.J. is the major responsible for the debacle.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#205

Post by cptroot »

geofft wrote: post #177
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

> The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens. Is that not democracy, then?

I would say that, at least in current US politics, it's more like a tyranny of the minority, abusing the system to increase the relative disparity of power.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#206

Post by whimsicalism »

burlesona wrote: post #136
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

I would argue it’s coming from the system. The national two party first-past-the-post system naturally leads to hyper-partisanship and constantly escalating stakes, meanwhile fewer and fewer Americans truly feel represented by the choices they have on offer - and very large numbers of people have their vote effectively ignored because their voting precinct is gerrymandered to ensure stable one-party rule. Because the…

I think it's funny to see people dismiss those who want to "tear down the system and replace it" as something untenable and hard to achieve, then go on to propose proportional representation.

How do you see any sort of path forward for proportional representation being adopted as an amendment to the constitution? I see no path towards 2/3 majority voting for that.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#207

Post by whimsicalism »

futurehero wrote: post #202

How many will die if every human alive today gets Covid-19, and will those who survive be able to repopulate the Earth, or will the percentage lost be a barley noticeable blip when individuals in the year 3000 look at the chart of human population growth from the dawn of humanity to their current age, assuming our species survives that long? If a blip, this has all been much ado about nothing.

> this has all been much to do about nothing.

The "much ado" that you all are bemoaning will be even less than a blip by the year 3000.

But keep coming with these really convoluted justifications for policy inaction -> millions of deaths, because in hindsight a thousand years later, a million deaths will only be a few among billions.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#208

Post by cptroot »

kryogen1c wrote: post #102
pbourke wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada In the case of US vs Canada, perhaps it does. Canadians have a high level of trust in expert civil servants, including public health officials. There is also a general Canadian pragmatism that kicks in: politicians from across the country and across the political spectrum have…

> In the case of US vs Canada remember that in the US, we're still barely in the beginning of this thing. trying to claim correctness of action is largely meaningless as we neither have herd immunity nor have felt the economic impacts of our policies. 9/10 NYC business can't pay full rent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24574314 personally, it seems the economic dangers are far larger than the health effects at…

> but that's a nonstarter for some reason

Yes, welcome to the nash equilibrium of polarized first past the post politics.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#209

Post by whimsicalism »

nemo44x wrote: post #113
neither_color wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective su…

I haven’t really understood the certain praise the EU has received by the USA media. The EU as a whole is similar to the USA and has done just as good/bad as the USA. Similar number of deaths. The USA has more cases but I suspect the EU has just not tested as much previously. There’s no reason to suspect the EU would have a higher death rate (USA has more confirmed cases but fewer deaths$. But today EU case totals ar…

I'm pro-lockdown, but I don't know why you're so heavily downvoted. Much of Europe, other than Germany, pretty much utterly botched it.

By excess deaths, the US is doing way better per capita than somewhere like France.

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