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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#131

Post by Retric »

ido wrote: post #123
Retric wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unlike for all countries to have equivalent transmission rates by default. Further, countries with younger populations (specifically vs 75+) would have fewer death even if their adage adjusted mortality rates are identical. Italy has a much larger percentage of population over 80 than the rest of Europe due to climate, migration patterns, and WWII. Compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/…

Did you intentional link to "Population pyramid of Germany in 1933"? This is the most recent chart and it doesn't look that much better than Italy's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media...

Yes, because it gave scale to just how big the WWI and WWII population impacts where. Click the right arrow shows the 1946 version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media... and one more shows the 2019 version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media... (It sadly groups the oldest population only really showing the male vs female ratio despite WWII having killed so many women in that generation.)

Both countries have a similar percentage of 65+ year olds, but COVID gets rapidly more deadly as you get older and Germany‘s very oldest generation is devastated. For comparison 31.30% of US covid deaths are from 85+ year olds.

Now take a look back at the male and female 90-94 and 95-99 year old slices of both of those charts you said looked similar.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#132

Post by romanoderoma »

eznzt wrote: post #122
jlokier wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming yes, are protests against democracy democratic? See also Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Yes, they are. If people don't want democracy then they should not have it.

That's not democracy, that's dictatorship of the majority

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit...

https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#133

Post by scottlocklin »

wongarsu wrote: post #93
scottlocklin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't…

France was doing worse than Germany in the first wave, and is doing worse than Germany in this second wave. In fact Germany is doing much better right now than the European average. The only "evidence" that countries that did worse in the first wave do better now seems to come from counties that decided that reducing testing is the easiest way to make the numbers look good.

You fail to understand the fact that everyone's going to get it. You can't control that fact, not even by blowing up the economy. The best thing you can do if you're afraid is to wear a mask and take vitamin-D (or go outside to get some).

Unless there is a miraculous breakthrough in vaccines, which seems unlikely in current year, this disease will be with us for the rest of your life. Just like the flu. If it works like other corona viruses, it will burn through the population kill off the people who are susceptible to it, and remain with us forever, just like HCoV-OC43 probably did in 1889 with the "Russian flu" of that day[0]. Nobody worries about that now.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-15/corona...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#134

Post by qwerty1234599 »

nemo44x wrote: post #115
pbourke wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada In the case of US vs Canada, perhaps it does. Canadians have a high level of trust in expert civil servants, including public health officials. There is also a general Canadian pragmatism that kicks in: politicians from across the country and across the political spectrum have…

Canada has little population density outside it’s local hubs. The virus isn’t going to spread so easily there outside of localities. The USA has more metro areas that are drivable to each other. It’s easier to spread in the USA. Look at the massive EU numbers and consider their density.

Diseases mostly don't spread between strangers. They spread between family members, close relatives and friends. Everybody has those, even in rural areas.

Look at past pandemics for reference, everybody was hit. The Spanish Flu spread in isolated arctic populations just as well as NYC.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#135

Post by BurningFrog »

mrkramer wrote: post #103
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

I'm not sure how Hitler winning 1932 German elections improved human rights in Germany and overall Europe. Instead it turned into dictatorship, tyranny and mass murder. And you can not say that Germany at the time was not rational and not educated populace. It was a Physics mecca of the world with people like Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger and Albert Einstein. My point is education does not equal to…

This is an epic side track, but the argument you could make is that Germany's choice at the time was between Nazi-ism and Stalin controlled communism. Liberal democracy was a distant third option that had no real chance.

We know the Nazi option turned out very very bad. But it's possible a German/Soviet Stalinist block would have been even worse.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#136

Post by burlesona »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

I would argue it’s coming from the system. The national two party first-past-the-post system naturally leads to hyper-partisanship and constantly escalating stakes, meanwhile fewer and fewer Americans truly feel represented by the choices they have on offer - and very large numbers of people have their vote effectively ignored because their voting precinct is gerrymandered to ensure stable one-party rule.

Because the system is broken, people are angry and want to tear down the system and replace it with something else. Unfortunately, history says that authoritarianism is a popular response to broken systems, and that it doesn’t end well. If we don’t want to go down that path we need to quit blaming individuals and get very serious about fixing the system: we need proportional representative multi-party democracy, like almost every other western democracy.

For citations and a deep discussion on this, see: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44244963-breaking-the...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#137

Post by christophilus »

Spearchucker wrote: post #41
Zafira wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

Well put. There was a book from ages ago called The Ugly American which caused a big stir in US political circles because of the way it decried US foreign policy. It contrasted the US approach (dinner parties in the Embassy) withe the Russians - who learned the local languages, respected local cultural nuances and customs, and taught locals how to more effectively till their lands. That contrast caused a huge stir in…

There are plenty of religious folks who would debate the bit about Russians (I presume you’re referring to soviet Russia) respecting local culture. Cult (worship) is the root of culture, and the soviets were not well known for religious freedom.

Edit: not a defense of US foreign policy, which has been abysmal. Just pointing out that the track record is abysmal across the board.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#138

Post by noncoml »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

Enforcing restrictions for closed spaces or making people wear a mask is not corrosion of democracy. If you think that making you wear a mask attacks your freedom you are a moron.

Corrosion of democracy is when these rules are used selectively and for political reasons.

So I think you comparison to Sweden in a bit unfortunate.

Also the virus was not the reason for the corrosion of the democracy where it happened, it was the good excuse. The problem is far deeper.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#139

Post by Hawxy »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #62
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?

> You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia.

In Australia? You mean metro victoria, right? Those restrictions are ending at midnight tonight as well.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#140

Post by ganzuul »

nradov wrote: post #114
Hokusai wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleagu…

People have been predicting a second wave in Sweden for months now but average daily deaths continue to be only about 2. They must be doing something right. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

I'm not sure placing all the responsibility for survival on the most vulnerable is 'doing something right'... Over here in Finland we strive to take care of the vulnerable even if it is no direct benefit to us, and inconvenient.
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