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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#61

Post by nradov »

neither_color wrote: post #52
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective su…

The null hypothesis is that the differences between countries so far are more due to luck and timing than rationality and education. If that's correct then over the long run infection rates will roughly even out between most countries.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#62

Post by DarthGhandi »

varjag wrote: post #42
baron_harkonnen wrote: post #8

The pandemic is the match, but I’m going to blame the pile of kerosene soaked rags.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"?

More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI

Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#63

Post by vixen99 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #54
samoa42 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

those seem to be a minority thou

Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.

Can we have a break from the thought-terminating cliches that abound on HN? Just like Pavlov's dogs: mention the word or phrase and the subject salivates. To suggest that medical expertise as such has a decided opinion on the covid crisis is merely to show that you haven't read the literature but have taken the line that more closely aligns with your political agenda. Reality is rather more complex as indicated by https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deat... giving deaths per capita.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#64

Post by Retric »

nradov wrote: post #61
neither_color wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective su…

The null hypothesis is that the differences between countries so far are more due to luck and timing than rationality and education. If that's correct then over the long run infection rates will roughly even out between most countries.

It’s unlike for all countries to have equivalent transmission rates by default. Further, countries with younger populations (specifically vs 75+) would have fewer death even if their adage adjusted mortality rates are identical.

Italy has a much larger percentage of population over 80 than the rest of Europe due to climate, migration patterns, and WWII.

Compare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/F...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#65

Post by varjag »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #62
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?

> You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia.

I am in Norway, taking my flight north of the country today in 4 hours. It's my 5th domestic flight since May, when the country reopened after 6 week long, early, popularly supported, voluntarily enforced lock down.

> More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI

…aaand?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#66

Post by friendlybus »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #62
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?

5km rules are in Victoria, yes. The west coast is enjoying the benefits of its natural isolation and I don't hear a lot of complaints from other states.

Locking down hotspots seems rational enough. How else do you control an invisible virus? What alternative do you really advocate for that is effective?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#67

Post by romanoderoma »

vixen99 wrote: post #63
mschuster91 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.

Can we have a break from the thought-terminating cliches that abound on HN? Just like Pavlov's dogs: mention the word or phrase and the subject salivates. To suggest that medical expertise as such has a decided opinion on the covid crisis is merely to show that you haven't read the literature but have taken the line that more closely aligns with your political agenda. Reality is rather more complex as indicated by ht…

That doesn't disprove that Trump, Bolsonaro, Johnson and Erdoğan are far right populist who fucked up.

On the contrary, it proves that US handled the crisis badly, worse than many other countries less developed and less rich.

Of course Belgium, with 11 million citizens (less than NY) and a population density of 385/km2 (USA is at 36) and headquarter of European political institutions had it worse

NY city death rate is in fact 1,960 deaths/million (2 times Belgium)

NY state is at 1,710/million

New Jersey 1,820/million

It's easy to win the stats game when you do not watch them closely

Of course you can scoff the numbers when you don't know that Belgium is counting any death happening in nursing homes (there are over 15 hundreds of them) as covid related, even the untested ones.

If you wanna talk about complexity, you should at least show that you can handle it.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#69

Post by pelasaco »

mschuster91 wrote: post #55
scotth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like USA and UK fucking it up. Who else?

Brazil and Turkey come to my mind.

why Brazil? The Democracy there works fine. There was a change in the power, which brought new dynamics to the Country, but IMO their democracy are eroding much less than in US, France and Germany

Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#70

Post by romanoderoma »

DarthGhandi wrote: post #62
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

You literally can't go 5km from your house in Australia. How exactly is that "fine wrt respect for human rights"? More people have died in a few months from Covid in the US than the entire 5 years of WWI Again, how is that just plain old dandy and nothing to think about?

> You literally can't go 5km from your house

I live in Rome, near the Colosseum, I never travel 5km from home, unless I have to. Being stuck in the traffic jam in your car is not a nice experience.

EDIT: maybe I should add as a disclaimer that the post tone wasn't obvious.

it came out bad.

My fault.

As someone else said after me, lockdown in Italy meant "stay home, don't leave your neighborhood"

I couldn't even go to visit my parents that live 4 kms away.

So if in Australia 5kms look bad, what would they think about staying confined in your homes to live and work, while also trying to keep your kids happy and motivated, because schools are closed?

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