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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#91

Post by chrisseaton »

notreallytrue wrote: post #86
inops wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you equating the response of the UK to Brazil or the USA? The UK locked down for months on end, and continues to lockdown areas depending on infection rates. To me, a Briton, the description of Johnson as "far right" is bizarre -- he's about as "far right" as Harold Macmillan.

Because he is in the same ballpark of the other 3, denial of the covid dangers, a strong sentiment of economy over people lives and the call to sacrifice Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going? I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.

> a strong sentiment of economy over people lives

Huh? No you've got it backwards - the argument at the moment is the Johnson is being too careful to protect people at the expense of the economy - the opposite of what you've claimed.

https://www.ft.com/content/7bb3e4b5-7dc7-464d-904d-aee5f7eb4...

> Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” ...

Yes. Isn't that just a fact? More people did lose their loved ones. That happened all over the world.

> ... just to keep the business going?

No, again you're confused here - that quote was about enforcing new restrictions to protect people - closing more businesses - the opposite of what you've claimed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/uk-moves-to-de...

Both of the arguments you made there were fundamentally mistaken and are actually evidence for the opposite of what you're claiming.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#92

Post by [deleted] »

m0zg wrote: post #50
dragonwriter wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People _are_ the economy Most popular economic performance metrics are quite distant from the real world effects on most people, largely because measures that incorporate distribution rather than simple aggregates are not popular. So while the people are the economy in a very real sense, discussion of economic performance impacts of real or hypothetical policy tend to focus on impacts that have a distant, loose rel…

That's a very long winded and obfuscated way of saying that people would be utterly fucked if the economy collapsed, which was my original point. "Experience of most people" would be pretty awful with 50% unemployment, and once economy stops it's very hard to get going again, let alone get it going to the extent we saw in January.

[deleted]

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#93

Post by wongarsu »

scottlocklin wrote: post #58
mschuster91 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.

The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't…

France was doing worse than Germany in the first wave, and is doing worse than Germany in this second wave. In fact Germany is doing much better right now than the European average.

The only "evidence" that countries that did worse in the first wave do better now seems to come from counties that decided that reducing testing is the easiest way to make the numbers look good.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#94

Post by Kiro »

Hokusai wrote: post #77
scottlocklin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't…

> they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleagu…

> And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine".

How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#95

Post by speeder »

In my country at least a lot of that has to do with the media and our current supreme court.

Despite Brazil having the most advanced constitution in the world regarding human rights, local leaders have been ignoring it outright, and when the president complained the media portrayed the president as a genocidal dictator, and when the president sued the governors and mayors to force them to obey the constitution, the supreme court literally ruled the Virus is so dangerous that ignoring the constitution and eroding rights is fine.

After that it only got worse, the supreme court been making lately more and more decisions that ignore the laws instead of enforcing them.

EDIT: people been downvoting me. Instead of downvoting why you don't present your argument instead, and let me present mine, this way we can have a conversation that might enlighten readers of this site?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#96

Post by pelasaco »

notreallytrue wrote: post #87
pelasaco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt…

you are creating a rhetoric that doesn't exist. There are 0 risk to be critics to south american regimes online. Maybe Venezuela?

To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period, you are not making the Brazilian Government look bad, but you are making the Nazi Period look harmless. From my personal life (my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s). Today 80 years after, I feel safe to wear my Kippah in Sao Paulo, but I don't feel safe to do it in Paris or Berlin (city where I studied and lived).

Bolsonaro as person and citizen has his opinions and he is really vocative about that (which is bad, and populist), but it doesn't reflect on the Politics being made in the Country. As it should be in a democracy, the personal opinion of a President has almost 0 influence.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#97

Post by refurb »

pbourke wrote: post #85
neither_color wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective su…

> Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada In the case of US vs Canada, perhaps it does. Canadians have a high level of trust in expert civil servants, including public health officials. There is also a general Canadian pragmatism that kicks in: politicians from across the country and across the political spectrum have…

Isn’t Ontario and Quebec going through a massive 2nd wave right now?

And there have been protests against the restrictions including one on Parliament Hill.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-rally-ottawa-1.570...

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#98

Post by refurb »

Spearchucker wrote: post #41
Zafira wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

Well put. There was a book from ages ago called The Ugly American which caused a big stir in US political circles because of the way it decried US foreign policy. It contrasted the US approach (dinner parties in the Embassy) withe the Russians - who learned the local languages, respected local cultural nuances and customs, and taught locals how to more effectively till their lands. That contrast caused a huge stir in…

The Ugly American was a work of fiction.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#99

Post by pelasaco »

koolba wrote: post #89
notreallytrue wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt…

It’s the opposite. He’s literally arming the population to prevent a future totalitarian takeover: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/americas/guns-brazi... Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.

That's a good point. IMO he is center-right with some influence of liberalism and populist as typical politician in South America. However his govern still open, respecting the diversity, supporting the refugees from Venezuela and respecting the sovereignty of Neighbouring countries.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#100

Post by refurb »

dragonwriter wrote: post #37
m0zg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People _are_ the economy. If you don't think economic collapse does not affect "people" I invite you to read about the Great Depression.

> People _are_ the economy Most popular economic performance metrics are quite distant from the real world effects on most people, largely because measures that incorporate distribution rather than simple aggregates are not popular. So while the people are the economy in a very real sense, discussion of economic performance impacts of real or hypothetical policy tend to focus on impacts that have a distant, loose rel…

Popular economic performance metrics include things like median household income and the unemployment rate.

I would say that are immediately and direct impacts on the experience of most people.

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