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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#81

Post by notreallytrue »

inops wrote: post #75
romanoderoma wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You literally can't go 5km from your house I live in Rome, near the Colosseum, I never travel 5km from home, unless I have to. Being stuck in the traffic jam in your car is not a nice experience. EDIT: maybe I should add as a disclaimer that the post tone wasn't obvious. it came out bad. My fault. As someone else said after me, lockdown in Italy meant "stay home, don't leave your neighborhood" I couldn't even go to…

Good for you that that policy wouldn't affect you. That's not the case for a lot of people with the infringement on their freedom of movement.

It's affecting everybody, I stayed home 110 consecutive days, when, I was living in Milan until July.

What looks infringement of freedom to you, to someone else is the best you can ask for.

I wish I could go as far as 5km from my house when I was in complete lockdown.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#82

Post by neilwilson »

pjc50 wrote: post #38
stuaxo wrote: post #25

The UK may not be on "about the same" in a couple of months, we've just had the "spycops bill" where police and many other agencies will be able to commit crimes, without limitation as long as it's signed off.

Moody's downgraded the credit rating citing "governance issues" just now.

What Moody's think is irrelevant to a sovereign nation with its own currency.

It's rather arrogant of them to think they have anything relevant to say on the matter.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#83

Post by pelasaco »

notreallytrue wrote: post #78
pelasaco wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.

So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964…

As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry.

Edit: specially with a socket puppet:

user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#84

Post by learc83 »

Spearchucker wrote: post #41
Zafira wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

Well put. There was a book from ages ago called The Ugly American which caused a big stir in US political circles because of the way it decried US foreign policy. It contrasted the US approach (dinner parties in the Embassy) withe the Russians - who learned the local languages, respected local cultural nuances and customs, and taught locals how to more effectively till their lands. That contrast caused a huge stir in…

> who learned the local languages, respected local cultural nuances and customs

The US is the only country who requires every single Foreign service officer to learn the local language before being stationed in a country.

The Foreign Service Language institute is the most prestigious language school in the world.

US foreign policy has plenty of problems, but leaning the local culture and language is not one of them.

The Foreign Service and our embassies and consulates are on of the shinning successes of US foreign policy (among many failures).

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#85

Post by pbourke »

neither_color wrote: post #52
varjag wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Societies with largely rational, educated populace are weathering COVID just fine, wrt. democracy and respect for human rights.

I'd argue there's no direct correlation. There are societies with lesser regard for rationality doing just fine too. Several countries not in "the path of the storm" can claim credit for anything they did and didn't do as having stopped covid to the point of superstition. Id credit Germans' preference of beer just as much as their February/March response or their penchant for rationality. It's a form of collective su…

> Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada

In the case of US vs Canada, perhaps it does. Canadians have a high level of trust in expert civil servants, including public health officials. There is also a general Canadian pragmatism that kicks in: politicians from across the country and across the political spectrum have handled the pandemic fairly consistently. The public remains mostly supportive of the federal, provincial and local initiatives. It has not been perfect, but we have not seen local officials warring with the Premier or the Premier warring with the PM on the issue of pandemic response.

In terms of education, Canada leads the world in working-age adults with post-secondary education[0]. Though primary and secondary education is a provincial and local matter, it tends to be consistently good in most of the country.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40708421

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#86

Post by notreallytrue »

inops wrote: post #76
romanoderoma wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't disprove that Trump, Bolsonaro, Johnson and Erdoğan are far right populist who fucked up. On the contrary, it proves that US handled the crisis badly, worse than many other countries less developed and less rich. Of course Belgium, with 11 million citizens (less than NY) and a population density of 385/km2 (USA is at 36) and headquarter of European political institutions had it worse NY city death rate i…

Why are you equating the response of the UK to Brazil or the USA? The UK locked down for months on end, and continues to lockdown areas depending on infection rates. To me, a Briton, the description of Johnson as "far right" is bizarre -- he's about as "far right" as Harold Macmillan.

Because he is in the same ballpark of the other 3, denial of the covid dangers, a strong sentiment of economy over people lives and the call to sacrifice

Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going?

I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#87

Post by notreallytrue »

pelasaco wrote: post #83
notreallytrue wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964…

As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period

Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not?

Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"?

The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt.

> user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago

I know for a fact what happens to you when you go against far right movements, especially south american ones.

Better safe than sorry.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#88

Post by inops »

notreallytrue wrote: post #86
inops wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you equating the response of the UK to Brazil or the USA? The UK locked down for months on end, and continues to lockdown areas depending on infection rates. To me, a Briton, the description of Johnson as "far right" is bizarre -- he's about as "far right" as Harold Macmillan.

Because he is in the same ballpark of the other 3, denial of the covid dangers, a strong sentiment of economy over people lives and the call to sacrifice Isn Boris Johnson who said “I must level with you, I must level with the British public, Many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.” just to keep the business going? I'm sorry but UK had it very bad under Johnson, it's an undeniable fact.

I've not heard "denial", a la Trump, from Johnson.

That's the trade off every country is making: dangers of the virus Vs long term effects of response to the virus. It's a balancing act. What would you prefer, wanton destruction of everyone's livelihoods in overreaction? Not everyone is lucky enough to have a job that can be done from home, such as us on this site (typically). Every country is trying to avoid shuttering everything.

The quote from Johnson isn't talking about what you're inferring. It was a broad statement of what was going to happen (and it has, across the world): people will still die, in spite of the lockdown. It was a public address, not a policy statement.

It isn't purely the economics: I've had friends and relatives that have had significant effects to their health (including a death) because of being locked in their houses for months.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#89

Post by koolba »

notreallytrue wrote: post #87
pelasaco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt…

It’s the opposite. He’s literally arming the population to prevent a future totalitarian takeover: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/americas/guns-brazi...

Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#90

Post by notreallytrue »

eznzt wrote: post #79
romanoderoma wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"

I thought protests were democratic and A Good Thing™?

Not when is Fascists Against Democracy™
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